Guest Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 id like to just say that i have dealt with company in china and got sent a wing it didnt cost me any money it was sent in the hope i would buy more apparently it is a copy but it is there own name , i was sent various video of them flying these and they have no certification over here but that dont mean they are not safe i think if you can get somethin cheaper that is of same or sameish quality get it bought, and a lot of wings are made in china so just because it is china dont mean it is rubbish so me given a choice to spend two grand on a wing over here which would be made in another country or to spend two hundred i would pay two hundred and i think a lot would do the same the only thing with this is the safety , i am not totally sure but i thought the paramotor wings which are tested anr tested without the risers and once risers are on the test means nothin maybe this is not so i do not know ya hear a lot and if someone does know please mention it , the other thing is it would be interesting to know the accident rate of paramotorists in china because they would use thre own wing i assume Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gallar Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 I cannot help but think that there is a clear parallel here between the question of PRC wing knock-offs and the counterfeit pharamaceuticals racket. In both cases the people who spend the money investing in research and design - and testing - get the shaft as others enjoy the benefits of the costing model in which pre-production costs are zilch. Like the pharmaceuticals also, whereas most of the knockoffs would probably just about do the business some of them will seriously harm your health or your life. I would be most unhappy if any of my clients were to seek to exploit my products at the cost only of the redistribution medium without being straight regarding the slice of my R&D costs and the value of my intellectual property copyright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 I have no problem with the standard of the workmanship from China, (they work to budget the same as others) you pay peanuts you get monkeys. Assuming you pay the correct wedge and dont say, "make it for me as cheep as you can" (which is the problem with most UK businesses that use a company from China to produce goods.) Rip offs I agree are bad at best due to all of the reasons above, but bringing this closer to home.... there are many 'rip offs' in our sport already some say that Dudek ripped off Paramania's Revolution with one of its wing systems and there are many more situations like this.....they use this motor, they use this harness and so on... I think it is great that we have a marketplace where competition exists in full force, cheep rip offs are not the way to go though. As I said, " you pay peanuts you get monkeys." you pay good money in China and you get great kit. Development is what will see this sport bloom that could be in the UK, France or China who knows? SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 (edited) Pharmaceuticals is a great example to cite i think. It seems to be at the extremend of the spectrum. Huge r and d costs but aboslutely MASSIVE profits. Ripping off new medicines is both moral and immoral at the same time! New medicines that could save many lives are denied to many people who need them most because of the need to turn a profit top the shareholder. Whose property is "intellect"? If I have a good idea do I actually own it? Only if a law is passed to say I do. You only "own" your house because of the laws of property; you would n ot "own" it in China!!!! the state would. We could just as easily pass a law to say that all ideas beloing to the state or the "world community" and the reward for having them and developing them measured in the gross benefit not the gross profit? At least no-one dies if they cantafford a paraglider! Edited July 7, 2008 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted July 6, 2008 Share Posted July 6, 2008 With the exception of a small percentage who buy a cheap motor-cycle instead of a paraglider Francis, but I take your point on the rest of your last post Regards Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I don't believe in thieving intellectual property but it happens al the time. From Harry Potter to Disk brake units for Boeings and worse. Products are churned out by a massive industry built on the back of slicing out R&D costs (someone else pays the bill) and exploiting the finished product. There is a fine line between taking this year's must have paramotor wing and a good, generic wing design and reproducing it. Someone designed and developed the generic after all but their efforts have been overtaken by events and developments. There is more than one angle to take on this, a youngster who could never afford a cutting edge package for animation design may use a pirated software package when he starts out. Should he make into the mainstream he will probably buy the full application with its support. For me the idea has legs because in the same way, ideas create products that are needed at ab-initio end starter prices - this in turn creates buyers at the sharp end of the market for the branded, cutting edge goods later. The sport needs to grow from a low cost base, this isn't the sport of kings, it is for anyone who wants to fly without breaking the bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helimed01 Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 As ground handling wings they would be great at the price. £150 for the Blue XL Makalu wing - - -- and £300 for Red XL Makalu wing. Hey Mike. My brother in-law has "seen the light" and wants to start paramotoring. He is looking for kit and wants something to ground handle. Are any of your Makulu wings suitable for learning to ground handle with a view to progress onto ground handling a paramotor wing. Obviously he doesn't want to spend too much at this stage. He is only about 70-80kg. Can you, or anyone please advise. Whitters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Hi Richard, They can be ground handled in light winds, but at your freinds weight if winds are a tad strong or he wants to free fly them then he is to light. These wings are size XL which is 95 - 130 kgs. In right conditions, ground handling will be great. i can bring them to Lambourn next time l'm down. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 ............ Should he make into the mainstream he will probably buy the full application with its support. another great example, software as "intellectual property" two models exist for this........... in house development versus "open source" The open source model recognises that whatever you "invent" you are merely tweaking and evolving someone else's contribution. "standing on the shoulders of Giants" etc..... The birds invented the concept of the aerofoil section and have perfected many types to suit different applications. We (man - the species not the gender) have stolen their idea and some have tried to patent versions of it for personal profit. How can they claim to "own" the "intellectual property"? Open source software dvelopers earn a living by recognising that no one person can lay claim to the whole of the idea so sell "services" that support the user of the software rather than "license" the software itself. This can be just as lucrative but requires the service to be well-provided and in-demand. I favour the notion of providing a needed support service over claims to "intellectual property" which at best is one new idea on top of the general consensus of decades (even centuries) and more usually one greedy smart-alec cornering the market. "All property is theft", ask a person how did you come to own your property?,...... but where did they "buy" it, .......but how did that person come to own it.......etc etc if you go back far enough it was taken from somone by force! Greedy Baron's getting a gift from a grateful king after they supressed a group of people and extorted taxes from them;-) Where do Barons (noblemen) come from? they are the ones who are prepared to use the most violence to get what they want, then pass "laws" to protect their gains. Look at Somalia....we call them "war lords" now look at England at the time of Magna Carta. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. It goes around and it comes around. I know a guy in France who stitches his own wings! He lives in a forrest in the style of an American Indian. I have no problem taking anyones idea and using it. Ideas belong to "mankind" not "a man". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Is a design an idea? Is a book an idea? Is a piece of software engineering an idea? Complex isn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gallar Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 ...whatever you "invent" you are merely tweaking and evolving someone else's contribution. ..... ....and putting them together in a particular way to achieve a particular end, whether code fragments built into a program to affect the actions of an industrial robot, words built into a story or poem to affect the mood or emotions of the audience, or the same old bunch of pigments, canvas and turps into a work of art. Everything is a rearrangement of existing things, words are after all only assemblies of letters at least in our type of alphabet, and the difference in taste (but not price of course) between a fine wine and a bottle of three quid paint stripper is actually down to variations and rearrangements of the balance between what is actually a fairly limited set of active molecules, themselves assembled from an even more limited range of elements (blah blah quarks etc reductio ad absurdum). Open source is a great model, and is indeed viable when earning from service provision. This however only tends to work properly when the open source development is general, and the more generic the better, and hence with a potentially huge user base. A more narrow 'vertical market' development for a limited number of potential target customers sees the development costs huge by comparison with the post-implementation service and support potential. Suppose it depends on whether you consider that the person who does the work involved in creating that assembly deserves to be rewarded for the effort! In the current morality I suppose the answer to that is generally "no". Why pay when you can visit a car boot sale.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Is a design an idea? Is a book an idea? Is a piece of software engineering an idea? Complex isn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 ...whatever you "invent" you are merely tweaking and evolving someone else's contribution. ..... .... Suppose it depends on whether you consider that the person who does the work involved in creating that assembly deserves to be rewarded for the effort! In the current morality I suppose the answer to that is generally "no". Why pay when you can visit a car boot sale.... The one who "invents" is not determined solely by their effort. The circumstances and opportunities offered by the community that supports them is crucial. Who can say what an Amazonian aboriginal might invent given the education and economic advantage that a western "inventor" starts with. By what morality does the one recieve and the other is denied? The effort put into inventing and operating a new spear in order to support the basic survival of many could be many times the effort of the western inventor, but he accumulates far more than he needs for himself as his reward! I continue to resist the notion that just because you have 'The Idea' that moves the generic to the next level you should necessarily recieve much in reward. Certainly you can use it to amass your fortune, but should you? How much of it came from everyone around you and how much was your contribution? Capitalism is founded on these principles but that does not make it Truth. Wealth being a comparative measure of the accumulation of "property" beyond that required for survival. The gathering of shiny things and their protection from the envious desire of others is the founding principle of our "law". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Is a design an idea?Is a book an idea? Is a piece of software engineering an idea? . Everything is an idea; even our perception of reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonphotographic Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 This thread has turned into a lively and very interesting one. On the point of copyright. I get very pissed off sometimes when I see one of my images used without reference. It happens often. One of my photographs is something 'created' by me. It's me that looks through the finder. It's me who decides the composition and exposure of the image etc. Before it's published, it's also me who does the final 'tweak' before anyone else sees it. In all those respects, that image is 'MINE' Yes, I have utilised the technology provided by others over the last hundred odd years, but the image is still 'MINE' After all, I have also paid my part of the R&D price by buying the kit available. I didn't invent paint, or brushes, or canvas,cameras,photography, photographic paper, developing chemicals or even digital imagery. But I DO claim ownership of my work. I don't, for instance, enter any competitions run by the BBC or ITV. Purely because their T+C's state that by doing so, you grant them free and exclusive rights to your image forever, and that they will only 'try' to give a credit 'if possible' Meanwhile, they make millions from other people's work! Someone whom I consider to be a very good friend recently asked to use a couple of my images to which I of course agreed without hesitation. However, when I saw my images used, and with my copyright tag edited out I wasn't happy. If you like a pic enough to use it, you credit the snapper. Otherwise, use your own bloody camera! I realise that production of a physical item such as a wing may be slightly different. It has, however taken someone a specified ammount of time and creative process to arrive at a final solution ready for production. Things seem to move fast in this game. (Unless you read the website 'blurbs' carefully, in which case you see the 'latest' wings were designed in 2005) Could the esteemed members of PMC come up with a design for an affordable wing? Of course we could. Do we need to knock off someone else's design? Probably not. But at least we know where to get it made for a good price. As long as we can retain quality control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvingair Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Serious punters kick real pigskin...me uncle kicked the winning field goal for the Edmonton Eskimos in 1955, their 3rd Grey Cup in as many years, with a broken foot at that! Authentic genius has no substitutes. Brown-noser or realist? who cares, Marko D p.s. the difference between a brown-noser and a shit-head is merely "depth-perception" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craggrat Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Good read. I want to fly so my cheapest option and safest is Paramotoring. I have been looking at motors and wings. Shocked at the price of some. How can someone charge £4000.00 for a new motor when all it is, is a frame a engine and prop. And wings £2500 plus. There are a lot of people out there making a lot of profit. I can see why there could be copies of wings and motors coming into the UK. If a newbie to the sport has two wings laid out in front of him of the same design and quality identical in every way except one has a makers tag on. and the cost of one is £500 and the other £2500. which is he going to buy. I bet all the wing that are produced, are made in China or Korea, and are produced for peanuts, then the middleman, agents etc. Put on there fat wedge , but thats business kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 yes it is interesting and i too think wings are very expensive i did get a wing from china lovely wing didnt pay for it it was a sample , i never flew it was very tempted but with there being no rating on it then who knows what it could do and how it would react so for me i sold it on as a ground wing and still looking for a wing with a rating, i think it was the fear that stopped me flying it, if i could get them tested in some way then for sure i would use them eveytime but its very expensive to go through that process so i aint too sure if people are making a fortune out of wings i think they make a living , there expensive because they go through rrigorous testing which costs. i have spoke to many china smakers of motors and altho they are somewhat cheaper once imported with the taxes and shipping they end up pretty much the same so again not worth botherin importing this is only my view and what i have learned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 what you have to remember is the design and R&D has all been carried out by the original manufacturer, this is an expensive and time comsuming task, the person making the copies has not had to go through this so is able to copy the wing as all they have to pay for is manufacturing cost, they also dont have to cover the cost of future devleopment, it would be great for us to be able to buy wings and "cheap as chips" prices but this would be a disaster for the sport as it would stunt progress in wing design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 The chinese are genius at copies, i deal with manufactures that have had genuine branded articles copied and you cannot tell the difference, even down to the logo on the metal zip. We are having our branded merchandise and clothing made in china, they showed me a genuine North Face coat and a copy and i scrutinised every stitch, talk about identical! They said they can copy anything for me and i mean anything, from a t-shirt to a laptop. It is of course illegal to buy and sell copied brands in the UK but in China it is very much overlooked, if you buy a branded article in China your 99% sure it's a copy. As for not wanting to use a wing made in china, i would, the lines on my Skydiving canopy are made in China, my Altimeter and helmet are made in China so is the material for my jump suit, so is my Wakeboard, so are the bindings on my Snowboard, all are crucial equipment which i trust 100% In the next 5 to 10 years it will be the turn of India and Pakistan, i have already been approached by companies in these two countries asking me to sell there products some of which are there own, others where branded copies which they would put my brand and logo on, this is not illegal if certain changes have been made, and that's what the Chinese are good at. In a nut shell i would never buy or sell copied products it puts people out of business and it's illegal, Chinese made products are cheap because labour is cheap not because it's crap, i trust there stuff 100%, i have to, some of the safety devises i have on my equipment are made in china, a bit like my AAD(automatic opening devise) on my parachute, the disc brakes on my motorbike and the airbag in my car. Richard Good point mate~~ Totally agree.. I am Chinese and selling my G6 power 100 paramotor to different coutries... We can make very good products... Airwave, Paramania, APCO they are all set up their glider production line in China... in my partner's factory... Let me show some pictures of AIRWAVE'S designer in the glider production line... he was suprised in China we have such a big factory to manufacture glider... our material imports from Europe and Japan, also with cheaper labour.... so why not.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2008 Share Posted October 3, 2008 well g power il have some off you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irm750 Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 Hi G6 Nice idea but.................... I wonder how long your mate will keep the Paramania/Airwave etc contract to manufacture their wings if those companies find out that he is prepared to knock them out to punters directly in their home markets at knock down prices, completely cutting them and the dealer network out???? Not very long would be my guess!! And what about aftersales service? Packing a wing up and sending it to China for inspection if there is a problem would soon get tedious and expensive. Just my 2 pence worth! By the way, do you do motors? I'm not sure if you mentioned it! Best regards, Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 well.... I dont think they are allowed those factory to sell their branded glider... Also, the reason i paste the pictures here just want to show that we have strong ability to manufacturer any of gliders... About AIRWAVE, OR PARAMANIA...i really dont know how they co-operate with each other... that is my partner's factory... the detail.. i dont know... sorry... However, we manufacture our own glider and own branded stuff... it is called "G6 power" i think u will see these engines and branded equipment in UK market soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 How far from Shanghai are you G6? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted October 4, 2008 Share Posted October 4, 2008 I asked the same question Ian, maybe we should meet up out there eh? ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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