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Precise wing copies.


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All,

I have been asked by a company in China if I would like to have a wing produced! or Re-Produced I should say.

The deal is a simple one..

I send over the wing I want to rip off.

They spend two weeks undoing the stiching and laser scanning the sections.

They then use identical fabric and sew in identical places (even offered to add extra rows of sewing if I wanted to make the wing 'better')

They will then sell them to me for 700 Euros.

Now I know that the wing from China would not be tested in the same was a say a Revo or a Synth but if they were the same wing same fabric same laser read sections and so on but..

Would you buy a new Paramania, Dudek or Ozone look-a-like for a grand with all of the same manufacturers guarentees?

I want to make it clear that I am not considering ripping any wings off here, I just did now how easy it would be!!!

2 weeks gets me a Simon W wing for under a grand.

SW :D

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Simon, take a look at the 'Diablo' Chinese copy of the Black Devil engine that is just about to kick off as a monumental court case and further divide the PPG scene in the US. Also look at the reception that the 'Speed Demon' received in the UK a year ago.

If I was you I wouldn't get involved as you will open up a hornets nest of both legal issues and and angered individuals. Many will also argue that you are stifling the development of the very subjects you are wishing to copy for the sake of a quick buck today.

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WOW there chap....

Not getting involved, (as mentioned above)

Just found it hard to belive that it could happen so quickly and with so little money.

SW :D

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Simon, although you only mentioned it as an example I'd be inclined to delete this entire thread, just my personal opinion of course but I don't think it reflects well on any of us and good old google picks up the negatives along with the positives! :D

Malc

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You could probably get it done for even less by offering it around to that guys competitors. But....

If you copy a used wing you get a copy of a used wing. The fabric stretches and distorts and the original is already a copy of the prototype, scaled up or down.

You have absolutley no way of knowing that the copy is actually faithful, just have to trust them to get it right.

You start to undermine the development process which is the main reason wings cost so much.

if you feel the UK dealers are inflating their margins and you can buy in Euros, you can get really good deals in Spain and Italy. Especially if you buy three at a time i.e. three of you want the same wing? Get them in Spain at 10 or 15% discount off the Euro price and they start to come in at a around 1700 E. Sure its more than 700 but its brand new, tested and the designer thinks its worth carrying on.

Dont agree about deleting the thread though, I think it is a very interesting discussion. And goes to the heart of the human condition.....Capitalism.... is it really democracy?

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It's interesting to know the price at which cheap copies could be made, perhaps potential for ground handling wings, anyhow I'm sure a few cheap wings are already manufactured in China.

From the quality of the stuff that I have already imported from there I'd not hang my life from under it.

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Very intersting this one.

As a new meber to the sport, and one who is looking at the second hand market, ie: Ebay and the like, how can we be sure that the second hand wing we buy is the genuine article?

If these copies are as good as they say, we would never know until it was to late, and then it's tears before bedtime, or worse.

David

Its better up there.

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If these copies are as good as they say, we would never know until it was to late, and then it's tears before bedtime, or worse.

David

Its better up there.

This is kind of what worried me hence my above post. The last thing we want to happen is a newbie thinking they can do this sport on the cheap and then go falling out the sky! Personally I would only buy a new motor and wing of a reputable brand, I realise not everyone can afford to do that but if I couldn't then I wouldn't bother until I could.

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When you have a population of a billion or so who's average wage is about a tenner a day you can make most things happen quickly.

However, ya pays peanuts, ya gets monkeys!

There was a certain kite manufacturer who decided to have their designs made in China. Their returns dept has never been so busy!

Umm, with respect ... thats incorrect

Many of the paragliders are made in China in the first place ... dont assume that just becausse its made in china its crap, theres an awful lot of top quality kit made out there ... I *thought* the Paramania stuff was made out there, could be wrong.

We used to import circuit boards from China, bare boards and populate them here, they were LOADS better than what we could get made in the UK and cheaper by 50%.

The reason they can sell you a wing for eur700 is simple .. thats probably exactly the same price Dudek and Paramania are paying for them. Good quality kit, fair price .. except, they ain't paying the R&D costs, the costs of supporting the dealers, the advertising, the dealers 30% margin, product liability insurance .. etc etc.

Im not at all suprised at the EUR700 price tag, sounds about right for the bit of kit.

But yeah, it sucks because although someone gets "a bargain" it shafts the companies that put in the hard work in the first place ... but you'd be wrong to assume that just because its Chinese, the quality will be crap. It could well be from the exact same factory that produced the original!!

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I agree with Francis and Malc, if you buy a replica gun, it doesn't fire real bullets. If l am dangling under a wing/canopy at 2 thousand ft l want to trust it and if makers can produce a wing for nearlly a quarter of the price l'd be a bit hessitant.

Just to add l still have my two wings for sale that l don't use, both are flyable as Paraglider wings but l would not use them as PPG wings. If you would like to see them flown l can bring them to the field next time l'm down.

As ground handling wings they would be great at the price.

£150 for the Blue XL Makalu wing - - -- and £300 for Red XL Makalu wing.

Regards Mike.

26 to go!! Pete :lol:

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If l am dangling under a wing/canopy at 2 thousand ft l want to trust it and if makers can produce a wing for nearlly a quarter of the price l'd be a bit hessitant.

Umm, like I said, you may well be getting someting made in the same factory ... same machinists etc, I guess what you arent getting is the benefit of all those visits by the designer to China to sort out all the little problems. Maybe you'll be lucky and get a perfect one first time out, maybe you'll have to return 2 before you do ... the quality control may well be a bit pants.

I don't think the problem is the quality of manufacture, as i said, they probaly get made in a factory thats already producing hundreds and hundreds of well known brand name gliders ... Counterfeit goods are a big problem when ther is significant R&D costs ... software woudl be the obvious example ... .a CD costs almost nothing compared to the cost of developing the software so piracy is always going to be an attractive option ..

In a huge market, like software, although piracy may well be rife, there is still enough market left for the playeers to survive and prosper (Bill Gates doesnt seem to have run out of dollars yet!) In a small and specialist market like Paramotor, piracy can have devastating effect.

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Very intersting this one.

As a new meber to the sport, and one who is looking at the second hand market, ie: Ebay and the like, how can we be sure that the second hand wing we buy is the genuine article?

If these copies are as good as they say, we would never know until it was to late, and then it's tears before bedtime, or worse.

David

Its better up there.

Hi David. Every certified wing has its certification certificate riveted to the centre rib (or in a pocket) or printed on the wing tip (older wings). On that certificate is its serial number, usually written in in indellible pen along with the date of manufacture. You can ring or email the maker or importer for a serial number confirmation. It is unusual for the copier to go to the trouble of replicating these on a "taylor made" wing although it may become a problem if a copier does it "on spec" .....like with rolex watches!

It is often better to buy from within the "community" to be sure of a wing's history.

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If l am dangling under a wing/canopy at 2 thousand ft l want to trust it and if makers can produce a wing for nearlly a quarter of the price l'd be a bit hessitant.

the quality control may well be a bit pants.

That is exactly it! you have no control. When a wing maker subcontracts with a factory in China the buyer will visit often and every wing will be quality controlled not just by the factory but also by the makerand then by the importer/dealer before delivery just like the pre-delivery check on a brand new car.

Every wing we sell is checked then flown and I always include collapse recovery checks. That all adds value. The 700Eu price is actually a bit high they come out of the factory at about 450 quid then get sold to the importer at about 1200 then the dealer pays about 1700 and the punter pays 2100 ish.

European dealers get better deals and better volumes so can retail them at lower prices (about the same in euros as we pay in pounds). The downside of buying abroad is that the "dealer service", if you need it, is harder to access. And the makers wont support you if you buy "out of zone" either, you have to take it back to where you bought it.

This is exactly the same sort of business model and margins that exist in many manufactured goods markets. Cars are the same in euros as in pounds I think and with the same kind of zoning for dealerships.

The more people in the chain the more markups get put on and the punter has to decide whether these add value.

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Ever been up a mountain in the copy North Face jackets? They too 'look exactly the same as the real McCoy'.

These guys are probably using the same labour that puts together OEM product, Paramania, Dudek ect but as others have said, they may well be there for the quick buck, not the long haul. Fancy wallpaper paste sealing your wing and a god quality nylon forming your risers. Sudden twang!

Mind you, it does raise interesting possibilities - what might be possible given a few good (original) ideas and a little courage.

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Thats an interesting thought Norman. The general design of wings is not any one person's idea and many wings are generic designs, more or less copies of more established designs from a few years ago. You might not have the very latest cutting edge wing but yet another generic wing at a fraction the cost? Cutting out the dealer and the importer and providing the club flier with a Direct Sell? Isnt that how Paratoys started? They sell their gliders at just over a grand ($2200)

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Yes indeed Francis.

How about a ground handling trainer for instance, smaller size, not for flight but easy to pack and use when the wind and the weather preclude flying.

A generic wing for ab-initio pilots, new starters and club hire. Who wants to lash out top dollar at the beginning of any sport. The market could be quite large for the 'ACME Starter wing'.

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The chinese are genius at copies, i deal with manufactures that have had genuine branded articles copied and you cannot tell the difference, even down to the logo on the metal zip. We are having our branded merchandise and clothing made in china, they showed me a genuine North Face coat and a copy and i scrutinised every stitch, talk about identical!

They said they can copy anything for me and i mean anything, from a t-shirt to a laptop. It is of course illegal to buy and sell copied brands in the UK but in China it is very much overlooked, if you buy a branded article in China your 99% sure it's a copy.

As for not wanting to use a wing made in china, i would, the lines on my Skydiving canopy are made in China, my Altimeter and helmet are made in China so is the material for my jump suit, so is my Wakeboard, so are the bindings on my Snowboard, all are crucial equipment which i trust 100%

In the next 5 to 10 years it will be the turn of India and Pakistan, i have already been approached by companies in these two countries asking me to sell there products some of which are there own, others where branded copies which they would put my brand and logo on, this is not illegal if certain changes have been made, and that's what the Chinese are good at.

In a nut shell i would never buy or sell copied products it puts people out of business and it's illegal, Chinese made products are cheap because labour is cheap not because it's crap, i trust there stuff 100%, i have to, some of the safety devises i have on my equipment are made in china, a bit like my AAD(automatic opening devise) on my parachute, the disc brakes on my motorbike and the airbag in my car.

Richard

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Richard has it, your iPod, Macbook and virtually everything else you use on your desktop comes from the PRC. They even copy the software as that is one thing they cannot make for themselves.

I am with him also when it comes to copying and plagiarism, without principles in relation to intellectual property what's the point? - anyone can reap the reward of your hard work - even put you out of business with the sweat of your own brow.

The idea has legs.. If the design is good and quality assurance is in place, you have a product.

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All,

I have been asked by a company in China if I would like to have a wing produced! or Re-Produced I should say.

The deal is a simple one..

I send over the wing I want to rip off.

They spend two weeks undoing the stiching and laser scanning the sections.

They then use identical fabric and sew in identical places (even offered to add extra rows of sewing if I wanted to make the wing 'better')

They will then sell them to me for 700 Euros.

Now I know that the wing from China would not be tested in the same was a say a Revo or a Synth but if they were the same wing same fabric same laser read sections and so on but..

Would you buy a new Paramania, Dudek or Ozone look-a-like for a grand with all of the same manufacturers guarentees?

I want to make it clear that I am not considering ripping any wings off here, I just did now how easy it would be!!!

2 weeks gets me a Simon W wing for under a grand.

SW :D

Ill take a couple off you Simon, great!!!

Only Joking

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