NIL wind landing

[davidreckitt]

Hi

Currently using a PG wing and the last couple landings in total nil wind have been a bit hard on the legs. Now, Im used to swooping with my speedwings but they all have trims and to land you trim out (faster) and I turn in steep to land to get energy and then swoop along the ground, slowing down then land.

So, forget the PG wing which obviously has no buckle trim and comes down like a brick in nil wind..I am to receive my new Revo2 in the next few days

But I still would like to ask you more experienced peeps - whats your nil wind landing technique? How much trim speed do you put on? etc etc

Huge thanks

David

[gordon_dunn]

Full trim on for landing in zero wind conditions...

I tend to flare a bit higher too, and somtimes slid my feet along the ground before starting the decelleration run...

[davidreckitt]

Full trim on for landing in zero wind conditions...

I tend to flare a bit higher too, and somtimes slid my feet along the ground before starting the decelleration run...

Thanks erm..full trim on you mean full speed right?

[Steve]

Full trim on for landing in zero wind conditions...

I tend to flare a bit higher too, and somtimes slid my feet along the ground before starting the decelleration run...

Thanks erm..full trim on you mean full speed right?

I doubt it

I fly a Revo2 and in nil wind it will happily land half way between trims pulled right in and neutral, or nearly all the way in if you want it slower.

[davidreckitt]

Of course Stevie, reflex wings at fast trim don't work well with brakes do they? So I guess it's a matter of trimming a tad faster than normal landing trim....or slower

Hell, I just need to get the wing and have a play

[gordon_dunn]

No - full trim on.. ie slowest flying setting.

Think of a plane- it puts full flaps on to land.

[matt_k]

Personally think its better coming with trims open 2-3" just before breaks get hard so you have a good amount of energy to bleed out with a progressive flare. start flaring as late as possible, too early and you will run out of energy.

[poz]

I was having a few problems with my nil wind landings on my Revo2. Eventually sussed it out.

If you land with trims fully in (slowest flight), you don't have much margin for error as you will not have an awful lot of energy to play with. I was finding that my landings were really heavy, because I was flaring just a little too soon.

Once, by accident, I came in with neutral trims, nil wind. I approached like a bullet, shit myself, but found that, similar to your speedwing approach, you use about a quarter brakes to level off, then as your speed bleeds off, you still have plenty of energy to slow you down whilst keeping you flying.

This landing was just short of neutral trims. Notice how I still have lots of energy when I finally fully flare:

[youtubevideo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2VFpdAG7Uk[/youtubevideo]

As you say, have a play when you get your wing.

Dan

[poz]

No - full trim on.. ie slowest flying setting.

Think of a plane- it puts full flaps on to land.

I never landed my plane with full flaps because it drained away too much airspeed leaving very little room for error

[davidreckitt]

I was having a few problems with my nil wind landings on my Revo2. Eventually sussed it out.

If you land with trims fully in (slowest flight), you don't have much margin for error as you will not have an awful lot of energy to play with. I was finding that my landings were really heavy, because I was flaring just a little too soon.

Once, by accident, I came in with neutral trims, nil wind. I approached like a bullet, shit myself, but found that, similar to your speedwing approach, you use about a quarter brakes to level off, then as your speed bleeds off, you still have plenty of energy to slow you down whilst keeping you flying.

This landing was just short of neutral trims. Notice how I still have lots of energy when I finally fully flare:

[youtubevideo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2VFpdAG7Uk[/youtubevideo]

As you say, have a play when you get your wing.

Dan

brilliant guys - thanks alot - saves me a trial and error period!

ref vid - beautiful landing well demonstrated

[ganers]

Very nice spot to fly from. I'm still very new so forgive the stupid question but how did you judge that approach and agl for flair. Very impressive.

Cheers lee

[Guest]

No - full trim on.. ie slowest flying setting.

Think of a plane- it puts full flaps on to land.

I never landed my plane with full flaps because it drained away too much airspeed leaving very little room for error

All to do with the stall speeds though

At the end of the day, you can have your trimmers anywhere... it's more about the flair.

SW

[poz]

No - full trim on.. ie slowest flying setting.

Think of a plane- it puts full flaps on to land.

I never landed my plane with full flaps because it drained away too much airspeed leaving very little room for error

All to do with the stall speeds though

At the end of the day, you can have your trimmers anywhere... it's more about the flair.

SW

That's very true. In an ideal landing your stall warning alarm will sound at the same time that your wheels touch.

For me personally, I always preferred to come in a little faster (ie 30% instead of 40% flaps), level out and bleed the speed off (trying not to land) until the stall warning alarm sounded then smoothly touch down.

Alternativley, using 40% flaps, you come in slower and as soon as you level out you are down to your stall speed, the stall warning alarm is sounding, and you are going to land regardless. If you have misjudged your flare, and your alarm sounds, you could still be a few feet off the ground and you will drop those feet with a thump and mucho embarrasment (tower, spectators etc).

No different with PPG.

That leveled out period buys you some time and room for fine adjustment to your landing.

[morgy]

I always come in on full reflex (trims out)

Much better to land faster as you have more flare authority in light and variable wind conditions.

If your going to try it best work up to it slowly... Once you have tried it a few times you will never go back to slow trim landings

[poz]

Very nice spot to fly from. I'm still very new so forgive the stupid question but how did you judge that approach and agl for flair. Very impressive.

Cheers lee

Hi Lee

Trust me, I wish every landing was like that. The technical term for a landing like this with a video camera running is 'stuffy'

Seriously though, it's all about repetition. You make a mistake or mis-judge something, especially on launch and landing, and you learn a bit more for next time. The best lessons are those that hurt the most, either in the wallet or physically.

Going back to the subject of the post. If you have enough airspeed when you approach the ground, although terrifying at first, you soon realise that once you have levelled out and have judged your height agl, you get to feel just the right point to fully flare.

However, you have to make sure that you flare whilst still having enough energy to make that flare effective. That is something I still struggle to judge.

Cheers

Dan

[poz]

I always come in on full reflex (trims out)

Much better to land faster as you have more flare authority in light and variable wind conditions.

If your going to try it best work up to it slowly... Once you have tried it a few times you will never go back to slow trim landings

Not been brave enough to land on full trims out yet. Must give it a go.

Although Morgy and I seem to be on the same page on this one, I do have to say that this landing technique does require more space to allow your airspeed to bleed off, especially in nil wind situations. Something I learned the hard way. Fortunately it was only long grass and not a car or a wall that I flew into.

[Steve]

I always come in on full reflex (trims out)

Much better to land faster as you have more flare authority in light and variable wind conditions.

If your going to try it best work up to it slowly... Once you have tried it a few times you will never go back to slow trim landings

I'd love to know more about this Morgy. Do you just use wing tip steering for everything up until touch down? Aren't the brakes harder to flare with? I've never landed above neutral trim in zero wind and found that more than adequate and never even thought about going beyond that - but then again I rarely fly with others so sometimes miss picking up better techniques.

[davidreckitt]

one thing that may be relevant here - works on speedwings (13m) in nil wind - if you have started your swoop too high OR you are running out of room = hands Up! this will get you lower quick, puts energy back into the wing. I had to land recently on my arse as I was approaching a forest of trees after coming in on a totally blind landing in Lauterbrunnen couple weeks ago..very fast...hands up put me down on the deck.

[alan_k]

Great tip David.

It's sometimes the simple actions you forget when you get into an uncomfortable situation; thanks

Cheers, Alan

[dede2008]

I always come in on full reflex (trims out)

Much better to land faster as you have more flare authority in light and variable wind conditions.

If your going to try it best work up to it slowly... Once you have tried it a few times you will never go back to slow trim landings

I'd love to know more about this Morgy. Do you just use wing tip steering for everything up until touch down? Aren't the brakes harder to flare with? I've never landed above neutral trim in zero wind and found that more than adequate and never even thought about going beyond that - but then again I rarely fly with others so sometimes miss picking up better techniques.

When you are trying to flare a 100% reflex wing trimmed out I don't think the flare will be as effective. Maybe Morgy is using this technique with his new Speedster, with which you can use the breaks throughout the complete range of trims.

[Steve]

Maybe Morgy is using this technique with his new Speedster, with which you can use the breaks throughout the complete range of trims.

Thanks, that would explain a lot. I keep away from my brakes above about 70% out, I fly a Paramania wing.

[morgy]

Well Michel Carnet always comes in on full fast on his Nucleon That is a FULL reflex wing..... If there is such a thing....

I come in using both tips and brakes in my hands as this gives me much beter turn rate when i have lined up for my final and am about to touch 10/15 ft i release the tips and then just use my Barkes.... unless i am out of line then i keep the tips until i need to flare.

The brakes are a little harder but not too bad... It took me ages to be persuaded to use full trims on landing. Not because of the speed but because i didn't think it made that much difference to the landing. The Speedster lands SOOO soft on Slow trim. But one day luke and I had a little xc stopping of at a few spots. I failed nearly all my landings due to shifting light winds very small landing fields etc etc . Luke told me to go to full trim for the next landing. I chickened out and came in on half!! i was amazed at the long glide with 100% more feel on the brakes compared to full slow.

This is not advised to the lower airtime pilot but if you have a few hours under your belt give it a go by raising the trimmer an inch at a time. Or try it on a windy day so you can feel how the brake feel with a faster trim setting..

Steve if your local to us your more than welcome and have a fly with us anytime...

[carlwarren]

I fly a Gin 28 reflex wing and never come in to land any slower than neatural.

Landing on full slow feels like I'm being dumped.

[Steve]

Well Michel Carnet always comes in on full fast on his Nucleon That is a FULL reflex wing..... If there is such a thing....

I come in using both tips and brakes in my hands as this gives me much beter turn rate when i have lined up for my final and am about to touch 10/15 ft i release the tips and then just use my Barkes.... unless i am out of line then i keep the tips until i need to flare.

The brakes are a little harder but not too bad... It took me ages to be persuaded to use full trims on landing. Not because of the speed but because i didn't think it made that much difference to the landing. The Speedster lands SOOO soft on Slow trim. But one day luke and I had a little xc stopping of at a few spots. I failed nearly all my landings due to shifting light winds very small landing fields etc etc . Luke told me to go to full trim for the next landing. I chickened out and came in on half!! i was amazed at the long glide with 100% more feel on the brakes compared to full slow.

This is not advised to the lower airtime pilot but if you have a few hours under your belt give it a go by raising the trimmer an inch at a time. Or try it on a windy day so you can feel how the brake feel with a faster trim setting..

Steve if your local to us your more than welcome and have a fly with us anytime...

Cheers Morgy, I often keep my motor in the back when I'm travelling - just in case - so will give you a shout if I'm going to be in the area.

My brakes are heavier as the trims are let out but I'll try landing with the trimmers out beyond neutral bit by bit and see how it goes - the Paramania WTS control line is not the best though so low altitude faffing with them and brake lines is probably going to be a bit of an issue. I find neutral trim generates more than enough energy for a good flare. The Revo2 seems to drop like a stone making it feel like it comes in faster than it is sometimes.

The reason I'm interested in this is that my local area is mountainous and hilly and in all but the calmest conditions I regularly find that I can be taking off in low or zero wind and hitting big wind within a couple of hundred feet. There is sometimes wave coming off medium and distant peaks as there are so many of them so landing may involve penetrating a good head wind that I suddenly drop out of into nothing. Landing without last minute pulling in the trimmers would be good (although I have my doubts that I have the best wing for doing this).

[bholleran]

After hearing Michelle, Morgy and Luke going on about coming in with trims full open. I reluctantly tried it (1/2 open)

To be honest I gave myself a fright it was so fast comapared to what I was used to. The ground rush was scarry in my opinion, but I did have a really nice landing in nill wind, much to my surprise.

I now routenly land with trims open to just over half ( I have not tried it fully open yet, for two reasons, 1. I am a big girls blouse and I am scared, 2. Since going to half I have not needed to)

I have to agree with Mark once you have tried it and got over the initial ground rush, the extra flare control does make landing much easier.

If I were going to try it again for the first time I think I would only let the trims out about an inch and get used to it there and then slowly increase until you get to a level that works for you.