ppg crash into street

[Guest]

Need a 'like' button.

SW

[aquatix]

Need a 'like' button.

Ruddy 'Ell Simon - is that your way of saying you agree with me on something ????

[Guest]

Yes.

SW

[aquatix]

Haha - I don't know whether to delete my post (in case people think I'm going soft) or frame it.

I think everyone stands united against any external bureaucratic regulation unless Francis cares to elaborate on why he feels it would benefit existing pilots, beginners, manufacturers or the sport in general ??

[poz]

I agree with Francis.

Right, now that's out of the way, what about the bicycle. Bloody dangerous contraptions. Unregulated. You don't need a licence, insurance, a helmet, any knowledge of the Road Traffic Act. Anyone can service/modify them etc etc.

How many serious accidents and deaths each year are caused by reckless cyclists. Let's bring an end to this NOW.

Francis, take it from here.

I don't mean to mock you Francis, but life MUST involve risk. The human race would not have evolved without our need and willingness to take risk.

Accidents happen. Always have, always will. That's life.

But, I have to say that considering what is involved, I think the safety record (serious injury/death) of paramotoring is exceptional, and right now we have a great balance of freedom to pioneer and evolve and a close community to help those that wish to be helped. As has been said already, no amount of legislation will prevent some people doing their very best to hurt themselves.

Don't spoil the balance.

Dan

[Neilzy]

I have had the odd dealing with this self proclaimed know it all Francis, here is a person who will at the earliest opportunity jump on any band wagon to slag off our sport, this idiot alone has cost me around £1000 due to his ill given misinformed, made up i know everything ramblings, i said then Francis you are a idiot, and should keep his ill formormed opinions to himself, it is people like you who are going to ruin this sport for everyone, Francis yes you want this regulated so that YOU and i mean that personally YOU will earn a fortune out of people coming to this sport, Dont go around speaking on behalf of the Paramotoring community just make it clear you have no intereast in Paramotoring or the people in it all your intereasted in doing is scare mongering and doom and gloom, you not and should not be saying anything on behalf of this sport.

Once again Francis im saying to you "go away"

[clivefreeman]

Yes definatley need a like button !!

[garyfreefly]

Nelizy

Dont go beating about the Bush what do you really think about Francis

The prophet of doom gloom and regulation

[trm8620]

Like +1

Francis, when the sport is regulated and I can no longer afford to fly, I hope you will be happy that you have ruined the sport for all but the privileged few with the resources to afford it.

(I fly in a safe manner, I fly safe equipment, I had excellent training, I am insured)

Tom

[Guest]

Francis, perhaps you could explain your point with regard to "improved craft" since any regulation in this area could only be at massive cost to the sport (and posibly kill it for most of us).

No I don't see it that way at all. Much of the equipment regulation already exists in Consumer Protection and H&S laws. They could be made to apply to elements such as maillons and bolts used to support swinging brackets. PPE certified equipment is required in other "Personal Suspension" sports and industries and it is illegal to sell non PPE for these purposes. The AAIB report into Kevin's death called for exactly that kind of thinking. The CAA wrote to the BHPA asking what they intended to do and there it rests (nearly two years).

As for airspace infringements (Barton or Manchester ?) - have the offending pilots been identified and spoken with ? Since the framework and rules for this are already in place, how would further "regulation" improve the situation ???

There you have the nub of the problem. How do you report an unidentified craft? Wing registration makings are the normal way to identify an aircraft but we are not required to carry them. Most of these infringements result in a phone call to the local PPG school who try to convince them that it was not one of theirs, the blame is by association.

My argument is that regulation will follow on the back of the increasing number of incidents. They have not reached that threshold yet but they will if current trends and uptake of the sport continue (it is growing exponentially).

My solution is to suggest simple and light regulation (not necessarily Air Law) that will pre-empt the knee-jerk reaction that will come when an airliner is endangered or someone is crashed into.

There need be nothing threatening or expensive in registration of instructors and everyone agrees that training is essential so making it an offence to sell a craft to someone without proof of a recognised training having been undertaken would drive attitudes in the right direction.

The alternative is to wait and do nothing and have the kind of expensive legislation that other forms of aviation endure imposed upon us.

I accept that these views are not to your taste but I am explaining them since you asked.

[Guest]

I have had the odd dealing with this self proclaimed know it all Francis, here is a person who will at the earliest opportunity jump on any band wagon to slag off our sport, this idiot alone has cost me around £1000 due to his ill given misinformed, .......

Once again Francis im saying to you "go away"

Quite extraordinary ???

No substantiation given just an accusation.

Is it usual to permit this level of abuse on this forum to someone who has expressed a view in another place and has come in here to explain what the thinking is behind the view?

My name was quoted and an opinion given. I have simply come in to explain my words and challenge that opinion. Is this forum only accessible to people who agree on everything?

Our sport is being discussed and plans are being drawn.

[Guest]

"the number of reported accidents and incursions are at acceptable levels at the moment"

Did they also tell you that the number is steadily rising? At what moment will "the number of reported accidents and incursions" no longer be acceptable.?

If the general public understand the difficulty responsible practitioners face there will be a level of sympathy, perhaps? Just keeping quiet an doing it right yourself will not be enough once the level of accidents and incursions rises to the unacceptable level.

This is the thinking that underlies my remarks in Manchester. The reaction to them has not been one of horror and condemnation towards the sport from the general public. The only condemnation has come from "dont rock the boat"ers within the sport.

[Trickyh]

Quote: 'Our sport is being discussed and plans are being drawn.'

And what the fúck is that supposed to mean Francis? I am sure you and your Flying Horse outfit is going to be very popular if we end up being regulated because of your un-restrained outbursts!

Rich

[jock]

hmm// schools should have the best up 2 date equipment.does that include the scooter tow bolt toggether peice of junk that francis had at the nats.state of the art not.regulation would be unenforceable will they have spies in every feild/.hill i think not....what about boat swaggles fitted to the wires of a hang glider what does the health &safty think of that one.not crimped like the industry standard.bolted together,so people who fly with you are putting there lives in danger.one needs to look at ones own back yard before preaching to everyone else.

[Guest]

......... because of your un-restrained outbursts!

Rich

I think that a revisit to the Manchester Evening News to see my words in context and the follow up from Lee Ganley will enable you to see that the folks of Manchester have a very clear picture of the current state of Paramotoring in their area and in the UK.

I came in on this thread because my name was mentioned and my words were clearly being added to and misinterpreted. I forgot this is a working mens' club of the lowest order.

As Neilzy suggests I will "go away" and leave you to your neanderthal grunting.

[haze]

Ok calm down folks...

And Rich, tone down the swearing, my good man.

We may not agree with Francis' views here. Discussion is good but lets not let this get heated.

I for one agree with certain elements of what Francis is discussing here. I am often asked by friends and enquiring members of the public about people flying from fields near them and without any registration, I don't know who a lot of the pilots are. And when you are teaching, if someone is low-level flying over the No-Fly Zones that you and your land-owner have agreed, it's frustrating, because it jeopardises your access to that field.

I also at some times think it would be good to have a Transponder, because even just today...a short half-hour flight...I started to core a thermal and a moment later a shadow fell over me, I looked up and a hundred feet above me, a twin engine prop-driven plane flew over. Had I lifted up suddenly then (and he came from directly behind me - I'd never have seen him) it would have been Air-Prox territory.

There will definitely be more and more incidents as more and more pilots take to the air. I am fully booked up at the moment and if other instructors in the South are too, then we've got at least another hundred pilots in the South alone joining the fray....and that doesn't include the self-taught brigade.

This all said, I don't agree with venting these frustrations on the Manchester Evening News site. It draws too much attention to the sport before we've managed to sort things out ourselves.

In an ideal world, all the instructors would teach the same syllabus, to a high standard, and it would be possible to identify those that have taken to the air without any training. So in essence, I wouldn't be against registration numbers and all of us instructors teaching the same syllabus.

Things will have to change at some point and I think it would be best if when it did change, it changed as a result of all of us wanting it to meet a standard that didn't mean we all had to go out and spend lots of money getting re-certified to different schemes, etc.

How we go about this is the big question.

Discuss...politely!

[haze]

I should just clarify that the reason I disagree with Francis posting that on the Manchester Evening News is nothing personal at all.

Far from it. I'm just concerned that there may be a reader of that newspapers website who might be like that woman on The Simpsons who exclaims "Won't somebody think of the children!!"

It only takes one person to write their MP or Councillor and demand that something is done. This could then progress upwards until those that aren't in the know end up making rash decisions to appease those that don't like Paramotoring, which affect us all.

But like I said...I DO agree with some of what Francis is saying. I think we've all got to realise that one day it WILL get some form of regulation. I just hope it doesn't stop me from doing the job I love (teaching others to fly) and price Paramotoring out of reach of those that want to be able to do it. - Regulation normally involves extra hoops to jump through. These often cost more.

- EDIT: Just Read the reply from Lee. Quite a well thought out reply there.

[trm8620]

I agree Training should be mandatory as should wing registration..... but at what cost?

I would love a microlight but £££££

Tom

[garyfreefly]

When the requirement for a licence insurance and exam becomes a reqirement to fly paramotors

and also the need to fly with a different reg number on each wing at a cost of around £150.00 each

I am glad I live in Wales where we wont have to

weve got our own goverment now you know

[haze]

Well that's just it isn't it.

I think we all agree that some things need to change...but it's a shame that inevitably, it will be us that ends up having to pay for it.

[trm8620]

I forgot this is a working mens' club of the lowest order.

Is that a compliment ??

[Guest]

Francis,

My question is, Who do you represent with your mission to regulate the sport?

SW

[Trickyh]

Sorry about my outbursts guys, but I've been watching this all day at work and was unable to post and the anger came across a bit heavy in my post.

I kitesurf as well, and just recently a ''well meaning'' instructor started mouthing off about safety and so on to the local land owners (this is an unusual spot where a golf course owns all the land up to the shore line).

To cut a long story short, he managed to put the fear of god up them, going on about public liability and kites crashing into guide dogs for the blind training schools etc(!) It turns out the golf club has now signed an exclusive lease over to him and he will now run the beach and charge the 500+ local members £200 quid a year for the privelidge, which used to be about £30pa

Fortunately, his little plan severely backfired and he is probably one of the most hated people within the kitesurfing community with people boycotting his shop, school and reviled club and stripped of his teaching qualifications and insurance by the British Kite Surfing Assoc (The UK governing body).

So can you see the comparison? Its going to be hard enough keeping us out of the attention of the press as it is, especially when there are so many motors and wings easily available on t' bay .

Personally, I thought the Manchester Post article was actually fairly well researched and unbiased until our ''unelected spokesman for the UK paramotoring community'' Francis spoke up for us. Its precisely that attention we should be avoiding.. Regulation will severely limit this sport and possibly ruin it for many to line the pockets of the few,

And if you want regulation, then can you please pop over to the BMAA website and see what state they're in!

Rich

[jock]

Thats what will happen.we will have to go to certain sites just to fly and end up like the bmaa,transponers would kill free flying in this country.air traffic control said they would take no notice of 100s of little dots around a hill.but somebody somewere would make ££££ out of it,even fully trained pilots fully insured etc have mishaps it wont stop the odd unfornate disaster from happening.i would jump at flying a microlight but the cost/regs have made loads leave microlighting.even ssdr is not in the grasp of many,a poll from all ppg members around the country would be good.for/against or leave as is.

[Neilzy]

At last he (Francis) listens.............

Has he gone????????