simon101 Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 I hate to say it but instructor registration and some sort of regulatory body to oversee them is a must in my mind. Any decent instructor would not have a problem with this. It wouldn't cost much to implement either. All singing from the same hymn sheet cant be a bad thing. In the motorcycle training industry we used to have checks done all the time and it was a good thing. Keeps everyone sharp. Keeps everyone current and safe with an established syllabus. With the amount of instructors out there it wouldn't be difficult to get a one for all training manual which all could work to. Don't ask me how it would be implemented, I just think its needed. Nothing to do with licensing or wing registration but merely so pupils know that they are getting the same training as everyone else and that all instructors meet the same standard. Even though the BHPA don't want anything to do with it, I think it should be down to them to deal with it. BHPA is surely the closest regulatory body to our sport? They have a dedicated School liaison officer and training officers that could cope with this. It could be funded the same way as paragliding is through them maybe? Simon, do you have a training manual that you have available to anyone or is it just for paying pupils? I'm pretty sure Clive came and done some training with you so I might be able to have a browse at his. You got one Clive? Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 I blame Jock for this mess..... . . . . . . Why? . . , , Well, if he hadn't posted the link from the MEN in the first place, Franky boy wouldn't have seen it and we wouldn't be here 8 pages later!! Rich Well if i had read the bolton news with a dictionary in hand,i would have been more articlute with my posting, bmaa. group ppg.group, phg group.caa, etc, yep theres def/no agenda going on my little darlings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Looks like ''our Francis'' has been a busy boy. with his agenda...From the BMAA forum http://forums.bmaa.org/default.aspx?f=14&m=4074&g=75633#m75633 Posted 2/3/2010 10:11 AM (GMT +1) Reason I ask Graham is that I have begun writing the draft consultation paper to propose a change to the SPHG definition and would value any insight from the CAA and the BMAA on the underlying philosophy for the current form of words. I am seeing widespread and increasing illegal and untrained usage and feel that some action needs to be taken now in order to protect our sport, which is essentially gliding rather than "powered" aircraft. Essentially the proposal is to remove the term "foot-launched" from the definition and replace it with a maximum wing loading. This will have the immediate effect of making training much more widely available through BHPA schools in both PPG and PHG variants. A separate proposal to address untrained usage by making the undertaking of a recognised course of training mandatory for SPHG, similar to the Irish CAA's requirement to have undergone training. These proposals stand independently but, together, address the safety and operational concerns many have expressed in the exponential growth of sub 70kg craft non-licensed flying in the UK Working for the common good are we m8? Rich Yes BHPA by the looks of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Yes BHPA by the looks of it Well I'm a BHPA member and don't see anything good about F.R.'s personal agenda - or even how he can say paramotoring is "essentially gliding" ... I enjoy both but they are 2 very different sports (until you turn the engine off) ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weesplat Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 That would be BHPA Ltd. to be totally accurate. A very much for profit organisation. just an observation..... Col.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 That would be BHPA Ltd. to be totally accurate. A very much for profit organisation.just an observation.... Col.. What would ??? Company No: 07652979 ???? No connection to the British Hang Gliding & Paragliding Association then (Company No: 02618166), incorporated and representing members interests for over 20 years, and only holding cash reserves (profit) equivalent to 2 months operating costs ?? When claiming to be totally accurate it helps to have some small grasp of the facts .... just an observation.... Al. QFI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richwill15 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Francis, the response on the MEN website seemed alarmist and did NOT mention your proposal. I am not sure of the relevance regarding the demographic. Indeed my first thought was wondering what your agenda was. A good analysis there "Richwill15", you do well to wonder at my agenda. My reason for coming in on this thread in the first place was to begin to clarify my agenda for you. Sadly you then go on to imbue my remarks with meanings that are not contained in the words I wrote, Just as the less articluate "Jock" attempted to do, provoking my initial intervention here. Francis. An interesting response. But to be pedantic. You did not come onto this thread to clarify your agenda for me. My name was quoted and an opinion given. I have simply come in to explain my words and challenge that opinion. Is this forum only accessible to people who agree on everything? You missed the point. Indeed at first I was wondering at your agenda. Your post on the MEN site did not explain it in any way shape or form. Again you obviously read things into my words which is fine. Far from reassuring the public that this is a rare event it appeared you wanted to tell the readers that the skies are full of middle aged men who are only too happy to plummet from the skies above maiming and murdering any Innocent children in the vicinity. I wish to state the above paragraph is sensationalist clap-trap. But I wanted to illustrate how easy it is to sensationalise what was after all an accident. But then I am unclear whether you are saying what I said is "sensationalist claptrap" or that the way you re-write what I wrote is the claptrap? If you re-read my post again you will see that I was referring to my paragraph as sensationalist clap-trap. It was inferred (not imbued) and was my own opinion based on your I'll explained writing. Our opinions differ: I would say it was hardly an "accident", it had an inevitability about it that made it sub-consciously pre-meditated. Opinions are subjective and equally valid. However, my own opinion is sub-conscious pre-meditation is hogwash. But you omit from your analysis the subsequent post from Lee Ganley, as if the MEN readers are left with nothing to balance the stark reality of the current regulation, yet, clearly, they are given a very balanced account of the state of play by him. When I first read your post Mr. Ganley had not submitted his response. regarding my agenda, as a paramotrist (or soon to be) you will want to know who has approved the instruction you are purchasing? How will you set about that? By asking the instructor? What will you ask to see? How will you verify it? I would have thought the agenda is transparent. You make a great many assumptions. As there is no singular body responsible I gave no consideration to who approved the instruction as there is no-one to undertake the approval. How will I make my choice? You'll note that I mentioned informed judgements. Does that include talking to instructors? I certainly hope so. What will I ask to see? A syllabus if one exists. Verification? I'm old enough to make my own choices. If I don't like what I see I'll go elsewhere. To a previous point. I feel you're trying to fix something which is not broken. Again just my opinion. As a question for you Are you claiming to speak for a group of people or are they your own opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Alan I can say that "paramotoring is essentially gliding" by reading the definition of SPHG in the ANO. The quote referred to was in the context of proposing to change the ANO and needs to be read with that in (10th percentile) mind. Rich, I speak for myself, always. You will see from the discussion here that those strip away the rhetoric and read my words correctly begin to see the value of them. You concede that a register of instructors would help you and other newcomers? And are seeking instruction so would have no difficulty with a legal requirement to have accessed training? Your main difficulty with what I have said stems from your disapproval of my MEN post, I think. Simon, you put it very well, don't be afraid to agree with an idea if you think it a good one. You make it very clear it is the idea you agree with and not me so no one will judge you for that. Simon W what is your view on registration for instructors, regular re-validation and proof of insurance? And on mandatory training for paramotor pilots? My own skills as a pilot (or lack of them) are irrelevant surely? Or do we only listen to the highly skilled pilots? If so most of what is said most of the time on this forum is without any value whatsoever. Most of what is said by the BHPA, the BMAA, the CAA, any flying organisation, is without value if it is the flying skills of the speaker that give the words value. The personal attacks are mildly amusing but weaken the opposing arguments. Besides, if I am as bad as all that I would be the first to go on my registration attempt, wouldn't I? So that should persuade the rest of you it is a good idea? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Well if i had read the bolton news with a dictionary in hand,i would have been more articlute with my posting, bmaa. group ppg.group, phg group.caa, etc, yep theres def/no agenda going on my little darlings. There definitely IS an agenda "Jock". Make no mistake about it. It is my agenda and I am pursuing it, vigorously. You need to dig deeper and wider. Maybe get someone to read it to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slim Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 So chaps, it is very clear that it has been a bit windy recently given that everyone seems to be spending time in front of their laptops posting in a flame war instead of flying. I chose to learn to fly a paramotor because it was relatively inexpensive and unregulated (and therefore inexpensive). I chose an instructor through personal recommendation and after conversations with a number of instructors. Had there been a central register of instructors I would have chosen from that list but I would still have wanted recommendations and spoken to instructors to find someone I got on with. It is clear that the "accident" in Manchester was largely (if not completely) due to pilot error. It is also clear that the pilot involved was insufficiently trained as he was breaking basic flying rules by flying too low over a built up area. He broke the law as it stands. There is no need for extra regulation to punish foolishness like this. In my opinion: New pilots need instruction There should be a syllabus to that instruction There is no need for there to be "only one" syllabus just as there are different awarding organisations and syllabi for A levels Instructors should have insurance pilots should have insurance (who is going to pay to repair that wall in Manchester?) If we do these things voluntarily then the authorities will let us remain unregulated. For as long as the foolish minority remain small and the damage they cause is minimal we won't be forced to increase costs by having to comply with extra legal requirements. And finally... I joined, and remain, a member of the Paramotor Club rather than one of the other organisations because I feel it has a less "political" environment. For the most part these fora are fill of people discussing flying rather than slagging each other off. There isn't a power game being played and there aren't big factions fighting for control. Please folks, let's concentrate on keeping each other in the air safely and having fun rather than point scoring and arguing on the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irm750 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Yes, not much flying recently! I too have resisted wading into this thread up until now as I am not normally someone who is politically active and prefers to live and let live, but it seems that there are too many assumptions being made about what’s best for the “paramotoring community” and for me to stay quiet could lead some to incorrectly assume that I agree with, or am coming around to their viewpoint. When I read the MEN article it was because I was voyeuristically interested to know what had happened to a fellow paramotorist and how the press were portraying it. I was reasonably satisfied with the article (apart from the expectedly sensationalist headline) as a balanced and unbiased piece of journalism. I felt simultaneously sorry for and angry at Darren Hill but felt that he had already paid a high price for his foolish behaviour which risked bringing our sport into disrepute. It was when I read the comment by Francis that my blood started to boil. This is where I’m a bit torn. I met Francis a couple of years ago on a couple of occasions and as a relative newcomer to paramotoring at the time I found him, like many other experienced pilots to be friendly and approachable. I was intrigued by the fibreglass paramotoring contraption which he had invented and strapped to the roof of his car, even though it looked like it was “designed and built from bits of junk cobbled together” I was quietly impressed and knew that the freedom from regulation which afforded him to do this was very attractive to me. I had heard that some in the paramotoring world had their grievances with him but I speak as I find and until someone does something to piss me off then I’m prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt. I know that Francis is an opinionated and eloquent member of the community but was shocked, disappointed and frustrated that he had chosen such an inappropriate place and method to air his controversial attack on paramotoring. Yes, a lot of what he said is factually correct but the tone can only ever have pitched to alarm the uneducated reader into some kind of knee jerk reaction. Which lead me to wonder at his motivation…..Subsequent posts from both Francis himself and others who have highlighted some of his other internet posts are starting to open my eyes to his intentions. Very clever Francis, you have got your agenda onto one of the most popular paramotoring forums in the UK. But at what cost to us all? You mention Lee Ganleys counter post as a balance to yours as if you had some hand in it? I praise Lee for stepping in to defend paramotoring, but it should not have to be defended from an attack from within! It was very tempting to post a counter argument myself but I feel that this would only have added to the credibility of Francis’ original post on the MEN site. I would also have like to post a link to this PMC thread so that everyone could see that we are considerate people who like to enjoy our sport without impacting on those below but thanks to some of the less politically correct remarks I sadly feel that this would be counterproductive. Taking personalities out of the equation, my opinion on the “idea” itself is that I came into paramotoring because I have had a life long passion for aviation and this sport puts it financially within my reach. The lack of bureaucracy and red tape involved in getting into the air is refreshing. I personally was taught by an independent instructor who worked to the BHPA and BMAA syllabuses and having a brain in my head allowed me to assess whether he was up to the job. I feel that the status quo is working for me, but then perhaps if I was a “Senior Instructor of foot-launched flying machines” and had gone to the considerable effort and expense of getting BHPA registered then maybe I would feel differently and want to eradicate some of my competition? Or I could just get on with becoming the best instructor and running the best school that I possibly could and then I would be so busy and successful that I wouldn’t have to worry myself too much about politicking behind the scenes? Best regards, Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 And finally...I joined, and remain, a member of the Paramotor Club rather than one of the other organisations because I feel it has a less "political" environment. For the most part these fora are fill of people discussing flying rather than slagging each other off. There isn't a power game being played and there aren't big factions fighting for control. Please folks, let's concentrate on keeping each other in the air safely and having fun rather than point scoring and arguing on the ground. Agreed, lets bury this until something interesting has to be said. We have all had our opinions, read the replies, and had plenty of time to post / vent. My Personal view is that we dont have anything to worry about based on a few quick calls which any one of you could make to ask yourself. (which I do of course advise against as I am sure the CAA would not like getting battered with the same questions all day / week.) The end??..... SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irm750 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 My Personal view is that we dont have anything to worry about based on a few quick calls which any one of you could make to ask yourself. (which I do of course advise against as I am sure the CAA would not like getting battered with the same questions all day / week.) The end??..... SW I trust your opinion and hope that you are right! So when's the next fly-in??? I've got some old junk that needs to be test flown into a concrete wall. Any untrained drivers fancy a go?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Slim: +1 Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neilzy Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Well if i had read the bolton news with a dictionary in hand,i would have been more articlute with my posting, bmaa. group ppg.group, phg group.caa, etc, yep theres def/no agenda going on my little darlings. There definitely IS an agenda "Jock". Make no mistake about it. It is my agenda and I am pursuing it, vigorously. You need to dig deeper and wider. Maybe get someone to read it to you? So finally its agreed its your agenda no one else's you dont speak for the community as a whole so lets treat it with the contempt it deserves........ Bye Francis keep you opioniated rantings & ravings to your skinny assed middled aged self!!!!!!! FAT MIDDLED AGED & YES BALD Neilzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 He who can, does; he who cannot, teaches. He who cannot teach, pursues his personal agenda. He who cannot fly (due to bad weather) types crap on t'internet. (borrowed from George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman, 1903, Maxim 36 in the Maxims for Revolutionists) I'll get my coat on the way out .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon101 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Agreed, lets bury this until something interesting has to be said. We have all had our opinions, read the replies, and had plenty of time to post / vent. My Personal view is that we dont have anything to worry about based on a few quick calls which any one of you could make to ask yourself. (which I do of course advise against as I am sure the CAA would not like getting battered with the same questions all day / week.) The end??..... SW Simon, Is my asking about training manuals "buried" now then? Not interesting enough? Did we get married at some point without my knowing, so now I get ignored. Not even a blowy once a month! You cad...papers are in the post, I want an annulment! Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 We do have a full set of manuals. They are not published in a digital format to prevent changes being made (outside of the process to change them) I only give them to my students (and all other PMC students) because they have paid for the training and it it's self is the final 'bit of paper' along with the ID card. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 The end is nigh///////// might even get a quick hill flight in 2day.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 http://menmedia.co.uk/manchesterevening ... -club-wall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1441646_i-cant-wait-to-fly-again-says-dad-who-crashed-paraglider-into-cricket-club-wall You cant keep a good man down eh darren.he didnt buy his kit of ebay then,top nocth kit by the look of it.£6000 you would have thought spending that much he would have spent a few pounds more on some training.he came from a gliding background so thought he could ppg ,does that mean i can fly an appache helicopter ive got blades that whril around.lol.//darren get some training you might not be so lucky next time///////// Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 I wonder if he had any PG training? SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyfreefly Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Bet my accident cost a fare bit too But then ive paid my taxes for years and years and years and its the first time Ive ever had hospital treatment.....some of the druggys , alcoholics, and people that go out for a fight on a friday and sat nights get much more use out of the national heath service than I do Its just not fare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jock Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 I wonder if he had any PG training? SW I would say no, if he did then he would have understood rotor etc,plus he had been kite handling for weeks in that feild.andif he was pg rated he would have known about not flying over buildings and people so low.as you know a building or trees sends rotor a long way .lets hope he dont clip his wheelchair to a ppg,lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_6095 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 If you now see hyperbole in the method you will recognise Kierkegaard as the model. Could we all recognise how jolly clever and well read Francis is? I have often thought that there are not nearly enough references to Kierkegaard, or any philosopher for that matter, on this forum. This example demonstrates how it can reinforce your arguments and add clarity to your logic. There is no danger of other forum members detecting an intellectual inferiority complex, or thinking that you are trying to baffle them with nonsense. My observations: it is pretty clear that those 'clip-board wielders' (probably, but not exclusively, bearded) who argue that we should be pushing the authorities to regulate us, usually stand to gain financially in some way from the exercise. The kite-surfing example is excellent. As various other users have stated, there are sufficient laws in place to prosecute people who act irresponsibly and endanger others - let's not actively encourage any interference from boring busy-bodies with nothing better to do than police our fun. And for those boring busy-bodies within our ranks: get a grip - go regulate yourself! Immanuel Kant was a real piss-ant who was very rarely stable. Heideggar, Heideggar was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table. David Hume could out-consume Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel. And Whittgenstein was a beery swine who was just as sloshed as Schlegel. There's nothing Nieizsche couldn't teach 'ya 'bout the raising of the wrist. Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed. John Stewart Mill, of his own free will, after half a pint of shanty was particularly ill. Plato, they say, could stick it away, half a crate of whiskey every day! Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle, And Hobbes was fond of his Dram. And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart: "I drink, therefore I am." Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed; A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed. There you are Francis, I managed to get the names of 12 philosophers into my post. I hope you are impressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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