alan_k Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I think the system over here in France is quite a good model. If it came to it in the UK something similar shouldn’t be too onerous. Registration of the motor and wing costs €40. To change your wing registration is €20. The wing is marked with a unique 4 or 5 character registration. What people do with multiple wings I don’t know, presumably it costs for each one, if you only have one as I do it’s not bad. Every pilot must be licensed, it’s the French microlight (ULM) license with a 40 multiple choice question exam covering all the usual stuff. Your instructor sends off for you license once you have passed the exam and reached the required flying standard, so no license without training. A lot of the microlight sites here are subsidised by the local authorities (fat chance in the UK I hear you saying) and welcome use by PPG. The problem in the UK would be the costs I’m sure, I can’t see it being as reasonable as here. Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Francis, perhaps you could explain your point with regard to "improved craft" since any regulation in this area could only be at massive cost to the sport (and posibly kill it for most of us). No I don't see it that way at all. Much of the equipment regulation already exists in Consumer Protection and H&S laws. They could be made to apply to elements such as maillons and bolts used to support swinging brackets. You clearly have no idea of the costs involved ... I used to work in the leisure marine industry and it would typically cost in the region of £5k to have one small piece of PPE customised and certified for use by our disabled customers, and any additional size or modification required further certification. That was 15 years ago, and you can probably treble that cost to have something certified for aviation ! Think how many potential weak links or moving parts are involved in a typical paramotor, with webbing, buckles, stitching, bolts, welds and other components which would all need to be load & shock tested, subject to long term stress and fracture monitoring in a range of temperatures, vibration and G force tests ... who would pay the costs even for current machines on the market (before we start on older models, or the vast majority produced outside the UK) ??? Once you go down the 'Certified Aircraft' route then owners wouldn't be able to service, repair or modify anything themselves - everything would have to be done and logged by a certified body (yet more cost). What engines are currently certified for aviation use ?? I know my Simonini isn't as it clearly says so in the owners manual ! Should we notify the press that all paramotor engines are liable to failure and we could end up raining down on the general public from the sky ???? I've not met you personally so I'm not being rude, but the whole idea is unfeasible, and it is barking mad to go scaremongering to the public about an odd isolated incident. I know there has been (thankfully rare) component failures, resulting in incident reports, safety notices etc. I agree that manufacturers should use the highest rated / quality components (even if it slightly increases costs) rather than cut corners / safety. They should also test them as much as possible before release, but after that it is the individual pilot who must inspect and maintain them before making the decision to fly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgy Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 TRICKYH I take you kite down at halying island.... and are talking about mr bull I kite down at east wittering and we are now seeing allot more people coming down to our spot due to people not wanting to pay... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 As for airspace infringements (Barton or Manchester ?) - have the offending pilots been identified and spoken with ? Since the framework and rules for this are already in place, how would further "regulation" improve the situation ??? There you have the nub of the problem. How do you report an unidentified craft? Wing registration makings are the normal way to identify an aircraft but we are not required to carry them. I asked for specifics about the infringements you mention as I fly this area and usually get to know about such things - I would still like to know what you are referring to. Airproxes are reportable and there have been exceptionally few cases that have been close enough to read a wing registration number, and zero collisions in airspace that I am aware of.... What benefit would wing registration bring ? Sure an offending pilot could be identified if he bimbled close enough to an active control tower, and maybe if causing a nuisance low over a congested area BUT where would it end ? Would we have to file a flight plan and only launch or land at registered airfields ? What about the vast number of us free flying pilots who regularly go XC - anything up to 100+ km, avoiding airspace all across the UK (otherwise flights can't be logged in the league) ? Individual farmers or members of the public could complain or report whenever they felt like it - even if they can't judge 500 foot or perceive a couple of paramotors passing over at legal height to be causing a nuisance (as you know, it happened at this years Nationals) !! All motor vehicles are subject to registration, but that does not stop them being driven erratically, dangerously, illegally or without insurance. It does not prevent accidents and at best causes drivers to slow down temporarilly for speed cameras ! I can't see how a wing registration number would bring any improvement to the current situation. Only better training and attitude will help - teaching piloting skills, not just how to "drive" the machine ! The BHPA currently has a 2 stage rating for this - CP for limited excursions around the landing field and pilot rating for longer flights - by which stage the pilot should be competent with map, compass & GPS, airlaw etc. Instead of being negative and trying to fix what isn't broken (with registration etc) if you feel so passionate about it why not attend the fly-ins etc and give a few free master classes in good piloting, air law, navigation and meteorology ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I kitesurf as well, and just recently a ''well meaning'' instructor started mouthing off about safety and so on to the local land owners (this is an unusual spot where a golf course owns all the land up to the shore line). To cut a long story short, he managed to put the fear of god up them, going on about public liability and kites crashing into guide dogs for the blind training schools etc(!) Fortunately, his little plan severely backfired and he is probably one of the most hated people within the kitesurfing community with people boycotting his shop, school and reviled club and stripped of his teaching qualifications and insurance by the British Kite Surfing Assoc (The UK governing body). Rich - exactly the same thing happened at my local kiting spot a couple of years ago (Ainsdale). I finally sold all my kit this year as it just took the fun out of it. Only takes one arsehole to ruin things for everybody ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil1975 Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I would rather the sport remain deregulated, but at some point (living in such a nanny state) it seems likely to happen at some point. If that's the case then surely we should pre-empt it happening. If we do so then it may help to avoid the issue at all? As I'm sure you know from reading my posts I'm new to the sport & still looking in from the sidelines to a degree, but the following seem like a start to me? 1. If PPG instructors were to sit down together (putting all personal agendas to one side) & agree a standardized syllabus surely that could only be beneficial & not too difficult to put into place. An example is the PMC syllabus itself, which was not a walk in the park (especially the exam), but I now feel fully informed & ready to fly safely. This could be taken to the BMAA to demonstrate the high level of training that we have CHOSEN to undergo before taking to the skies (& if regulation were to happen could only help ease the transition as the trained pilots could be more quickly & easily identified). Everyone going through that training would be known to be at the same, high standard. I know there is no requirement to have any training but by undergoing some form of recognised, standardised training we are demonstrating our willingness to fly safely. I would assume that no one would be particularly happy to fly with an untrained pilot & site restrictions would be easier to apply making it harder for new untrained pilots to fly in those circumstances. 2. Wing registratiions. Although I am against this, it's something else we could start to do ourselves now on a voluntary basis, avoiding the beaurocracy (& hopefully a lot of the expense). We could start to hold a register of wing markings (I'll volunteer to do it myself if anyone wants to do it). Who says they need to be 4/5 letters or expensive? Could we not come up with a bulk deal with a wing marking company whereby we had any name or logo (company logo, training school name etc) of OUR CHOICE put on at a reasonable cost. At least WE would then have the say in how this works & the system would be much cheaper than if something were forced upon us? If we made ourselves identifiable surely it would not make any difference to us as everyone flies within the rules anyhow! And before you ask, yes I am seriously considering having something put onto my wing to identify me. Do we really need to do anything more at present? I think not. I know not everyone will agree with this. I'm just throwing my thoughts out there, but I would think that just doing the above we would not be ruining the sport but we would be showing a willingness to go out of our way to keep the sport as safe as possible & doing it on OUR terms. This would hopefully keep things as they are now without the evils of red tape, pink cotton wool & the huge expense that, I think we all agree, could kill the sport off & isn't something anyone wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 . Only takes one arsehole to ruin things for everybody ..... I find myself agreeing with you more and more Alan. I hope the guy in hospital mends well. He shouldn't have been flying low over the houses for an hour, waving at people, as you've probably heard me say before. I make no apologies for repeating myself . I'm not adversed to the idea of carrying a license to fly ppg, aslong as it's cheap enough and not a money making plan for some authority. If the guy that crashed, hadn't been able to buy equipment, before being trained and competant etc etc. It might also act as a deterent for repeat offenders (500 ft rule, noise nuisance etc) if they have something they can loose. Afterall, if you have the power to enforce training and "weed out" the poorer attitudes or give a bit more help to those who are found to need it, that piece of paper would probably be enough, without having to get into sticking numbers on wings and yearly inspections. A stitch in time saves 9 Perhaps take a vote on what measures we would rather see. To do nothing is probably not going to be an option for long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_k Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I guess just a simple registration wouldnt be a bad idea!. Some rogue took off in southends airspace the other week and flew low over the houses then over the local MOD which had to be shut down, his even slapped it on youtube! We have been trying to track him down with messages on youtube but nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_k Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Someone do a poll! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neilzy Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Can anyone help shed some light on a senoir instructor failing to launch at least 7 times in near perfect conditions and the very same senoir instructor attempting a tandam and forgetting to buckle his legs straps thus slipping from his harness. Surely this instructor must be a fake who is he????? This senoir instructor should he exsist or even if this is true i dont know must be exposed and stopped can anyone shed some light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I'm not adversed to the idea of carrying a license to fly ppg, aslong as it's cheap enough and not a money making plan for some authority. Cost is subjective - I've owned 6 wings in the last 2 years and will probably be getting another next year. No way I want the hassle of plastering and removing ID numbers from the top & bottom surfaces each time I change wings ..... I carry my pilot rating and insurance policy with me should the relevant authority ever query it, but I've only ever been asked to show it once (at the Nationals). Even in microlighting circles nobody ever asks to see your PPL. A previous poll has shown that even on this forum there is a wide mix of self-taught, BMAA, freelance, BHPA and PMC trained pilots - just from the few who responded, and there are many more out there. Standardising training and registering everyone might be a nice idea, but is certain to take time and money to even get started (once all affected parties actually agree). A couple of questions though: Who are we trying to appease with all this ? The likes of Francis, the general public, CAA or some unknown regulatory body ? Who stands to gain anything ? Also, if licensing and registration were compulsory where would it all end ? It would certainly pave the way for further regulations such as certified aircraft, licensed radios, transponders etc Most of us got into the sport because it is cheap aviation. Once you start adding further hurdles and cost you make it more tempting for people to bypass them, skipping training and sneaking into the air from any available field. Some estimates put 10% of motorists in this unlicensed / uninsured category, so I can't see it being any better in the sky away from ANPR and traffic police .... This is how Darren chose to have his accident and nothing we say or do on here could have prevented it - he declined training and paid the price. The general public (and press) aren't even sure what we are - usually some sort of parachute with an engine is mentioned. Wing numbers aren't going to change that perception. The CAA & police have the means & power to track down any serious airspace violations / offenders already, so perhaps we should just leave the status quo as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Some rogue took off in southends airspace the other week and flew low over the houses then over the local MOD which had to be shut down, his even slapped it on youtube! We have been trying to track him down with messages on youtube but nothing. The police helicopter is stationed near where we fly and is often airborne when we are - it has even come over for a nose when we have been setting up or packing away so I doubt they would struggle to catch us if we did something so stupid.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt_k Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Can anyone help shed some light on a senoir instructor failing to launch at least 7 times in near perfect conditions and the very same senoir instructor attempting a tandam and forgetting to buckle his legs straps thus slipping from his harness. Surely this instructor must be a fake who is he????? This senoir instructor should he exsist or even if this is true i dont know must be exposed and stopped can anyone shed some light. lets play hangman! ******* **** Is there a R in it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyfreefly Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 great great a game can I play is there a francis in it never did quite understand hangman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivefreeman Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 great great a game can I play is there a francis in it never did quite understand hangman And im still chuckling !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 On Alan's question "who stands to gain" ..... well hopefully all of us. If we chose to have a license, a bit like Alan mentioned in France earlier, perhaps it would prevent wing lettering from being imposed on us later. Flight behaviour might improve, one would hope, and perhaps less gear would get sold to the untrained. It might reduce airprox incidents and mistakes with the weather to fly. Once in operation for a year or two, we could check through all of the reported incidents, to ascertain whether most are happening to unlicensed pilots. If that was the case we can then say "look OUR system is working" Then it's clear to all that nothingelse needs to be imposed and we can all enjoy rellative freedom and safety to ourselves and others. What do you reckon ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poz Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 On Alan's question "who stands to gain" ..... well hopefully all of us. If we chose to have a license, a bit like Alan mentioned in France earlier, perhaps it would prevent wing lettering from being imposed on us later. Flight behaviour might improve, one would hope, and perhaps less gear would get sold to the untrained. It might reduce airprox incidents and mistakes with the weather to fly. Once in operation for a year or two, we could check through all of the reported incidents, to ascertain whether most are happening to unlicensed pilots. If that was the case we can then say "look OUR system is working" Then it's clear to all that nothingelse needs to be imposed and we can all enjoy rellative freedom and safety to ourselves and others. What do you reckon ? License - Definition (Wikipedia) The verb license or grant licence means to give permission. The noun license (American English) or licence (British English, Canadian English, Australian English) refers to that permission as well as to the document recording that permission. A license may be granted by a party ("licensor") to another party ("licensee") as an element of an agreement between those parties. A shorthand definition of a license is "an authorization (by the licensor) to use the licensed material (by the licensee)." In particular a license may be issued by authorities, to allow an activity that would otherwise be forbidden. It may require paying a fee and/or proving a capability. The requirement may also serve to keep the authorities informed on a type of activity, and to give them the opportunity to set conditions and limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 What do you reckon ? Who is going to administer such a scheme and how could it be enforced ? If unlicensed pilots are still physically able to take to the skies then we would still all be tarred with the same brush anyway. You might choose not to sell your decent gear to someone untrained, but there is plenty of old, knackered or unsafe kit available to them on evilbay and elsewhere, so surely that places the beginner in greater risk ? On a lighter note: (the last one is my headcam from yesterday when a gust front knocked 4 of us out of the sky - do I win a pilot's license ?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Ok I get the message. All open to fraud. You might be right. I hope we can keep flying with the minimum of fuss though. Lets see what the rest think and take it from there. I'm optimistic enough to hope there will be a good compromise that would benefit all . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon101 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 If this all gets regulated with wing numbers and ways of identifying us... I'm going to get told off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyfreefly Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I hope its just for taking a sicky...... and not for flying low Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 If this all gets regulated with wing numbers and ways of identifying us... I'm going to get told off! you mite need this before that http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CYLINDER-HEAD-ROS ... 415baf68a2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivefreeman Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 If this all gets regulated with wing numbers and ways of identifying us... I'm going to get told off! you mite need this before that http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CYLINDER-HEAD-ROS ... 415baf68a2 Good call , i will text him !! cheers Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 If this all gets regulated with wing numbers and ways of identifying us... I'm going to get told off! you mite need this before that http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CYLINDER-HEAD-ROS ... 415baf68a2 Good call , i will text him !! cheers Dave someone is breaking a ross on ebay, mind you Simons doing a good job of breaking one too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neilzy Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 Easy Easy!!!! dont want you to Start!!! something and cause a scene he is a bit touchy on that lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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