Formal investigation report....August 29th 2009

[Guest]

The Reports can now be found on this site.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4301

I will be adding a link to the main top bar to this thread.

I see this as helping people to stay safe.

SW

[Guest]

Alan,

Just as a point to note,

This is the entire Section 4 from the most recent report. ..

"SECTION 4 - SAFETY RECOMMENDATIONS

None."

Now is it just me, or is that about the last section to leave blank? why have they not given recommendations. Is it being left to the forums?

Section 4 as I see it is the GOLDEN opportunity to grab peoples attention, and offer advice to help prevent the same thing happening again. After reading a report people 'WANT' to know how to avoid it, but are left to do there own research.

That in my opinion is a bit of mega F up.

SW

[alanhinsaudi]

Norman,

I have no axe to grind with the BHPA! It is my considered, un biased, opinion that the report is not well done and has missed an opportunity to enhance flight safety for paramotor Pilots. One good result from the report is that it is getting pilots to talk about and question flight safety.

Simon,

Thanks, you got my point. The lack of any safety recommendations is outrageous. An accident report that just records the facts is worthless! Even thought any recommendations made would not be mandated, it would have given pilots un-ambiguous areas for development or caution rather than them having to decipher the report and come to their own conclusions. This in itself is a flight safety issue.

Alan

[norman]

Hi Alan,

'Not accusing you of being partisan Alan, far from it. I could have phrased my reply a little better. I am just trying to maintain the most even tenor I can, I don't want to raise the temperature of the debate, just keep it moving in the right direction.

Production of Accident Reports

I would be surprised if the AAIB had not tutored the BHPA inspectors in the conduct of investigations at some stage or in the production of reports given that they are working hand in hand with them. AAIB inspectors are exceptionally well trained, they have a worldwide reputation for the quality of their work. Questions really?

I do wonder at the nature of the relationship between the AAIB and the BHPA. If the latter are producing these reports for no financial reward they probably consider their content to be (at least partly) BHPA intellectual property. That doesn't sit well with the AAIBs responsibilities so it is logical to assume that they are being paid.

As Simon says, what is less clear is why the AAIB are not demanding the visibility that you would expect from an Air Safety information provider. As others have said here, if WE THE PUBLIC are paying for the analysis, we want to see the results.

The BHPA/AAIB have a duty to make reports visible for ALL, if not a legal one, a moral one given the aeronautical ethos/best practice discussed here.

One good result from the report is that it is getting pilots to talk about and question flight safety.

Great point.

[bathboy]

All,

Over 2 months ago I contacted the AAIB and asked them if I could be in the distribution list for safety reports. And they said nothing more than. (Its on the BHPA website so look there.

I offered to put a tab on the top of the page saying AAIB Accident reports, which would put it at the top of google in a week.

They said, no.

I wonder if the BHPA would be happy to supply the information as it comes out so we could put it on the site.?

Dave, as a BHPA member would you be happy to ask?

I can see NO reason why the information should not be spread as far and wide as possible. If they have one I would love to know what it is.

If they say yes, then I will ensure that inside of 1 week, the reports are displayed from our main page.

If they say no, maybe a quick list of names a 'petition', to get the information more public would work?

If not, we can copy the information (WHICH IS PUBLIC INFORMATION) The AAIB is finded 100% by the tax payer, they are there FOR us, and to serve every single tax payer on here.

I have spoken aslo to the Department of Transport complaints department about the lack of access to the information, they also said thay can see no reason why the AAIB or the BHPA would say no to being added to a distribution list. (they are expecting me to open a formal complaint which they will help with) (DTI controls the AAIB)

In a nut shell,

I OFFERED to get this information out to a wider group and the AAIB flat said NO.

SW

Are we in danger of mixing publication with publicising and being in the public domain?

I totally agree that PMC, PilotsPPGclubUK forums, BHPA, and face to face we should all publicise safety, but with t'internet we can all link to and 'see' where they are published now. They are already public.

At work, I encourage all parts of the business to publicise important information like Safety, Security etc. but strongly discourage duplication. Now only one part of the business will publish it. The rest link to that one source. This reduces the risk of copies not being updated, and educates people what part of the business does what, and where to get the information.

So if I worked the AAIB, I would also have discouraged you from wanting to publish your own copy (giving the above reason) and encouraged you to publicise and link to the already public source.

Sorry if I've misunderstood, but I don't get why we need another copy to publicise?

And what is stopping us from putting a tab on the top of the PMC page saying AAIB Accident reports, linking to the already published and public source list?

phew

Cheers

Paul

[norman]

Paul,

I don't think anyone has any issue with the principle you describe, it is really sound and almost certainly the way the AAIB are thinking.

The issue is that there is no 'flagged' freely accessible link to the reports. They are behind the members area and there is no open link on the front face of the BHPA website available for non-members to use.

The impression that is being broadcast is that the BHPA are squirrelling this vital safety related information for their members. I fight shy of suggesting that they do this to further promote membership applications-enhance their standing as that applies heat to the situation that we can all do without. Is there another explanation though?

[Guest]

The number of downloads in one day is evidence enough of the need for greater exposure of the safety document.

Personally I don't care where it is but see no harm in 'publishing' them here in the hope that even one more person reads them and maybe even helps to prevent an accident. (is that not what they are for?)

As it is over 50 people have read them in less than 24 hours. (from this site)

SW

[dmh]

having followed this track closely over the last 24 hours I must say how worrying I find it. As a new (yet to get legs off ground )pilot with all the gear and no idea it is pretty concerning when a guy with 67 flights dies not doing anything stupid or having kit failure.

Sure I am getting trained properly (sky school) and have decent kit (rev and macro) and check the latest news (check this forum daily although very rarely post) but it's blinking sobering and not exactly confidence inspiring...

[Guest]

Hi,

It is true to say that Accident reports are not the nicest read. I will however highlight the small number of accident compared to the number of pilots.

I would also say that the biggest danger in our sport is the weather. As I read it, the weather & a little pilot error (most likely caused by the stress of the situation) are responsible for this one.

The message is, if in doubt just don't fly....If is 'on the edge, but flyable' don't fly.

Save your flying for the nice crisp blue days, the silky sunset flights and so on.

If you choose to extend your flying window, then you CHOOSE to add the extra risk that comes with it.

SW

[tommcb6016]

It's better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than... being in the air wishing you were on the ground..

That was repeated over and over during my training

[alan_k]

Sure I am getting trained properly (sky school) and have decent kit (rev and macro) and check the latest news (check this forum daily although very rarely post) but it's blinking sobering and not exactly confidence inspiring...

All aviation carries risk. You are doing the right thing in thinking safety (reading these posts for one), buying proven kit and getting good training.

To put a positive slant on this thread paramotoring is the safest recreational flying, with the bonus that you can land almost anywhere should the need arise.

During your early flights compose a set of rules that give YOU confidence in taking to the air, and stick to them For example:

Don't fly when there are large fluffy clouds,

Don't fly when the wind forcast is above a certain value,

Don't feel compelled to fly because others are flying,

If you have any doubt about anything don't fly. This includes health, weather, kit, ground conditions, etc.

It almost goes without saying ALWAYS do a thorough pre flight check and don't fly if something is not right.

On different occasions I have not flown due to:

something picked up at pre-flight,

because I didn't like the way the wind was gusting,

I didn't feel calm (maybe confident?) enough,

the field was wet and quite slippery.

You can always fly later or on another day. Here's to a long and safe flying experience.

Cheers,

Alan

Edited January 20, 2010 by Guest

[alanhinsaudi]

Sure I am getting trained properly (sky school) and have decent kit (rev and macro) and check the latest news (check this forum daily although very rarely post) but it's blinking sobering and not exactly confidence inspiring...

It is unfortunate but accidents happen and as an Engineer I regularly have to read air incident/accident reports both civil and military, and most are horrific. A consequence is that every time I step onto a civil aircraft the what if scenarios go through my head, I know what can go wrong. However, it never prevents me from getting on board! The same is true for all the aircrew I know. This is because we have faith in the systems that regulates and controls the aviation industry that have reduced the risk of an accident happening to as low as is reasonably practical (ALARP). Also, the open, honest and independent approach to air incident/accident investigation/reporting ensures these systems are continually being improved. It is this mindset that must be applied to our sport.

To try and put your mind at rest you are doing everything right. You have undertaken training with a well known instructor, have bought good equipment and read the forums looking for advice and guidance. You have reduced your risk to ALARP. If you still have any doubts talk to your instructor he is perfectly placed to give you the advice and guidance you need and will guide you through your first flights until you build your experience and confidence. Believe me it is well worth it and once you have the experience you will read the report above with different eyes.

Alan

[Mike]

Just to add that l believe PPG, flown in the right conditions is less likely to have colapses than PG as with PG we look for white fluffy clouds to give us our lift and associated minor problems.

Just follow the advice given above and you won't go far wrong.

Regards Mike

[outkast]

having followed this track closely over the last 24 hours I must say how worrying I find it. As a new (yet to get legs off ground )pilot with all the gear and no idea it is pretty concerning when a guy with 67 flights dies not doing anything stupid or having kit failure.

Sure I am getting trained properly (sky school) and have decent kit (rev and macro) and check the latest news (check this forum daily although very rarely post) but it's blinking sobering and not exactly confidence inspiring...

Now think about all you have read about the hazards we face, the accident reports and the things that can go wrong, yes all that will seem quite daunting, yet whenever we can we will get out and fly

There is probably no other form of powered aviation that give you the same sensations as paramotoring.

Yes there is a risk, the size of that risk depends on taking the right actions, as you are, proper training etc

and making the right descisions

If the risk is as great as it seems, then just think how amazing the reward must be?

[pete_b]

I feel A LOT safer Flying my Paramotor than when I am riding my bike.

[outkast]

I feel A LOT safer Flying my Paramotor than when I am riding my bike.

That reminds me, you taken the stablisers off that thing yet Pete

[Guest]

FYI,

We have now had 105 downloads of the accident reports (in just under 48 hours).

I call that a result.

SW

[helimed01]

but I have insufficient experience of large wing displacements

This quote from Captain Norman Boeing 777 fleet is a good one.

I suppose it is a bit different

[norman]

How wonderful it is to to know that your mates are thinking of you while you are away.

Unusually high temperatures over Siberia at normal cruise levels forced us to fly a little lower than we would do normally on our way out here to Beijing. I didn't get a chance to test the theory but at -70ºc (FL330) the wing becomes a bit less floppy. I suppose the key word is floppy, hopefully it will stay right where it usually does in this cab.

This isn't a great picture because of internal cockpit reflections and light of the rising sun but you get an impression of what Ulan Bator (Mongolia) might be like should someone try and sell you a time-share for January months. It was only -23ºc on the ground as we went past, practically tropical for winter. Must be global warming.... LOL

Sports Day (summer)

They are very proud of their local hero, Genghis Khan so taking the piss isn't something they advise in the tour guides.