Yorkshire PM “pilot” actions not doing your sport any favours

[AndyG2]

Flying over RSPB sites may not be illegal but will not make any friends with the birding community. The altitude in the pictures are another matter. There appear to be people flying in the East Leeds area that seem to think they can do whatever they want. Someone needs to have a word. Some advice from the CAA attached for reference. 

[Blackburn Mark]

25 minutes ago, AndyG2 said:

seem to think they can do whatever they want.

Easy there my good man, you "may" be stretching a touch of honest ignorance on that pilots part into something a little more malevolent.
I'm not condoning the ignorance... if I knew the pilot, I would attempt a "gentle" arm twist (after confirming the ethical trespass)
Its a shame the birders or whomever it may concern didn't manage to "gently" twist his arm into being a touch more shy of flying that aria.

We all wish to get a little of what we love and that includes pilots and birders alike.
 

[adamjedgar]

Firstly, is there a law against low flying paramotors in the UK?

 

Forgive my ignorance of UK regulations in this sport....

 

You guys dont have mandatory ppg licensing do you? If not, then its not a controlled sport...so with the exception to obvious  regs for restricted and controlled airspace, aviation rules for registered aircraft with licensed pilots wouldnt apply...therein lieth the problem i think.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by adamjedgar

[Blackburn Mark]

3 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

Forgive my ignorance of UK regulations in this sport....

You might look into it before you conclude... Air law or rules do indeed apply to paramotors / sub 70kg flight.
There are some gray arias that fall into none legal categories that are often covered by decency, common sense or polite agreement such as nature / spotting arias etc.

We may drift towards a position where there is nothing left we can fly over if ONE demographic gets its own way to the detriment of all other demographics.
I don't want or expect birders not to be protective, or game shooters, ramblers.... There are many who like to make use of the countryside and the airspace above it and in the most part, we get along just fine  


 

[alan_k]

10 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

Firstly, is there a law against low flying paramotors in the UK?

The 500 foot rule in the UK is this:

'Except with the permission in writing of the CAA, an aircraft shall not be flown closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.'

This is a distance not a minimum height, so you can fly below 500 feet providing you are 500 feet away from 'any person, vessel, vehicle or structure.'

As I understand it (or interpret, possibly) a road isn't classed as a structure but a bridge (for instance) is.

[chrsfrwll]

And judging from a lot of videos posted online, most don't know how far 500' is

[AndyB]

500 feet may be thought of as 1 2/3 football fields. Most can judge this reasonably horizontally. I find most cannot judge this as a height if they never fly with an altimeter. After using an altimeter for 3 years I can now get height fairly accurately without checking'.......but at first I was way out...I remember thinking I was at 500' and finding 250' on the meter!

[adamjedgar]

The question is, does a paramotor or a paraglider fall into the category of an aircraft?

 

To my way of thinking the underlying problem is no requirement for a license or registration. That puts it in the category of a pushbike that flies.

 

[AndyB]

Yes a paramotor is an aircraft and has to comply with the ANO. It is exempted from certain parts, such as registration and displaying a reg no. 

[chrsfrwll]

[Blackburn Mark]

4 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

To my way of thinking the underlying problem is no requirement for a license or registration

To my way of thinking, bugger off with your inviting legislation, some of us can only just afford the sport as it is!

[adamjedgar]

On 31/08/2020 at 05:25, Blackburn Mark said:

To my way of thinking, bugger off with your inviting legislation, some of us can only just afford the sport as it is!

And there is the reason why you have this entire thread...on the one hand a person complains about a pilot doing the wrong thing, likely a result of limited regulation and training, and on the other hand, you dont want any control because of money.

 

I have interests in both sides of the argument, i really do, however in all honesty even i have come to accept that we cannot have it both ways, its either one or the other. If people were capable of doing the right thing without any form of regulation, i dont think a police force would exist anywhere in the world (extreme example i know, i know).

 

I envy your system because here in Australia we are highly regulated in ppg. Having said that, its not expensive considering how much people spend on buying coffee each year. The immediate cost of regulation is training ( It provides an income for instructors and helps improve safety standards and skills a lot...so its worthwhile) and Federation membership ($365 per year).

 

 The main downside of regulation for me is the loss of being able to fly low and slow at all in Australia. We basically cannot fly below 300ft now unless we are on private property with written permission...it sucks. Launching now is almost getting to the point where an airport is tye only option unless you wanna risk being suspended if someone complains. I have experuenced suspension 3 years ago...so i know first hand how regulation restricts this sport in Australia at least.

[Blackburn Mark]

4 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

a pilot doing the wrong thing

That is yet to be ascertained... Despite that, arias often get avoided on pure good will and / or, it is psychologically unpleasant to p*ss on someone else's joy. 
The OP has indulged himself in a painting a slightly darker picture than might be the case which is understandable and forgivable given a little reciprocity of attitude on the matter... Staying cool is better for all of us and the shorter route to protecting BOTH our chosen passions.
 

5 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

I have interests in both sides of the argument

So do I.
 

6 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

If people were capable of doing the right thing without any form of regulation, i dont think a police force would exist anywhere in the world

You may well rob a bank if you knew you would get away with it, that might just place you in a minority demographic who requires rules via force... I would argue that the alternative is a slightly nicer place to exist and there are too few places left where it can and does  

 

10 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

I envy your system because here in Australia we are highly regulated in ppg.

And I envy American Part 103.
 

11 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

Having said that, its not expensive considering how much people spend on buying coffee each year.

I cant afford that posh coffee... I drink that powdered crap that taste like shite and cost 10p a cup.
 

12 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

The immediate cost of regulation is training ( It provides an income for instructors and helps improve safety standards and skills a lot...so its worthwhile) and Federation membership ($365 per year).

Not overly keen on expressing my take on this point in an open forum... I will say you may not be at all wrong but despite that, I enjoy the psychological quiet of self-reliance and first hand discovery on my own personal terms.
I will concede that the stakes are high and there is not a lot of wiggle room for getting things wrong.
 

18 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

The main downside of regulation for me is the loss of being able to fly low and slow at all in Australia.

Then try not to p*ss on our chips just because someone p*ssed on yours.

In the initial complaint above, we get ONE side of the story with all the anger and trimmings... Ordinarily, these things can be resolved with a calm chat even on those occasions where there is no "legal" infraction.
We ALL want to get our slice of fun out of life and not many of us enjoy navigating narrow legal tunnels carved out by people who don't even know our names!
Pastimes or hobbies are also called "escapes" for a reason  
 
Take it easy man, I'm trying not to rub you up too far the wrong way, I am as protective of sub70kg flight as the OP is of his quiet nature spot... We are not very different at all.

 

[e2vdavidb]

Very much looking forward to being back in the UK in the next weeks for some easier/less restricted flying.

In Germany I am heavilly regulated to have a licence basically treated as an Ultralight so same exam.

I also need to fly from a regulated flying site, generally airport although most of the ones I use are grass strip including a farmers field that is registered. Joining a circuit with significantly faster light aircraft is not so much fun but my local airport allows me to have a short circuit and land by the tower (at 7€/landing). I also need a radio licence and to carry and contact the tower but also good to know what traffic is arround.

It does significantly reduce the flying I do here as when the weather is good the air is full of UL Aircraft making it not practical for me to be in the mix.

Being a responsible pilot comes to what is reasonable, carrying 3rd party insurance is I think reasonable and here the German flying assosiation helps as they give me very competitive cover through their club. Some form of training also reasonable if only for your own safety.

I´m happy to support a club to give the sport a voice and for the social side, for me sharing my sport with fellow flyers and flying in company is epic.

The sport does offer a low cost way to get in the air with kit you can fit in a car. The equipment is getting better and safer but also the numbers of flyers is incrseing so at some point there will be some regulation I´m sure.

I saw this happen in the model drone world with the newísh registration reqirements so fairly sure it will happen at some point to our sport.

Lets hope with the voice of forums like this we can manage to keep the UK skys open and to assist those interested into taking a safe path through training so they also feel the freedom of flight.

I know I ranted a bit off topic, apologies. We have to get on with our neighbours, be part of the community so we not seen as sky pests.

Someone will always get the hump regardless, part of an open culture so thanks to Simon for hosting our voice and members for being a community. 

So whos up for some flying around Oxford in the next weeks

 

 

 

[Blackburn Mark]

2 hours ago, e2vdavidb said:

Very much looking forward to being back in the UK in the next weeks for some easier/less restricted flying.

So it is something of value worth protecting  
 

 

2 hours ago, e2vdavidb said:

Someone will always get the hump regardless

We are arguably lower impact than dog walkers, mountain bikes, horse riders.... But, we are a big shiny target for the misanthropic opportunist side of the human condition to take aim at... We are stuck playing defense in our attempts to be nothing more than another group making use of our countryside.
 

[AndyB]

11 hours ago, Blackburn Mark said:

I cant afford that posh coffee... I drink that powdered crap that taste like shite and cost 10p a cup.

 

[powerlord]

Nothing new though, we were all saying the same thing 15 years ago when stuff started appearing on ebay and it seemed every nob end was buying some ancient piece of crap and try to take off from his local playing field. But really, it was a few idiots who soon lost interest or saw the sense in doing things right.

15 years later, I think the majority of pilots still keep thier noses clean. Almost all issues are with low flying - not everyone appreciates been given a photo opportunity of you flying by 100 feet away from them (hands up - I've done it myself when I've been low flying, came around a corner at the coast and been low over a dog walker, etc) - and some will  really get the hump - it's easy to forget with ear protectors on just how annoying a nastly 2 stroke can be 100 feet from you when yer out enjoying a quiet walk, or worse, 'birding'..especiallly if it's a bit windy and yer hovering above them for 10 minutes.

As Mark says, as long as we self police with a light hand, we keep the powers that be happy and in turn they will be happy to renew the ANO. Like it or not, CAA's main goto is the BHPA, and any anti-social flying is likely to be reported their too... and then it's likely to be treated with a not so light hand.

As a quadcopter/drone flier (and registered), I hope it won't come to that here - the entry cost (training and equipment) is small there - so I can see the neeed to have registration to an extent*. It's a much higher cost of entry for us.

*still don't like it - as chances are any bad drone flying within 10 miles of my house means muggins gets the visit from the bottom inspectors and has to prove it wasn't him - hence the dumbness of a registration system imho - the muppets won't bother registering.

 

 

[AndyB]

Exactly. I have over 100 RC planes and drones. Every one now has to have my registration number on, but the muppets don't bother. Also, if I was a terrorist with an agricultural drone (capable of carrying a 27 kg payload and auto flying a predetermined flight path/height, at predetermined time ie when I was not in the country) I would not bother registering either. So, I am not sure what the drone registration scheme is trying to achieve.  

 

[powerlord]

On 03/09/2020 at 14:29, AndyB said:

Exactly. I have over 100 RC planes and drones. Every one now has to have my registration number on, but the muppets don't bother. Also, if I was a terrorist with an agricultural drone (capable of carrying a 27 kg payload and auto flying a predetermined flight path/height, at predetermined time ie when I was not in the country) I would not bother registering either. So, I am not sure what the drone registration scheme is trying to achieve.  

 

quite. It's one thing that's surprised me tbh is how there havn't been loads of folk doing terrorist stuff with em... I mean - 500 quid you could be flying a drone into trump/johnson/whomever's face live on tv... 30 mins of basic RC extras and you've got a payload to drop. Maybe terrorists are just thick as sh1t.. but thick as they may be, they ain't gonna go 'oh I better register my drone before I fly it over heathrow main runway'... load of old bollocks imho. I wasn't going to register - I bought a mavic mini and was gonna sell my mavic pro.. but in the end I couldn't part with it - it's just too much fun so had to bite the bullet and register

 

100... you've definitely got me beat there Andy !

[adamjedgar]

Its a real shane that my love of an airborne dirt bike (paramotor), is not also the love of bystanders. Some do whqtever they can to make my life difficult...even inte tionally putting themselves  in my line when im wanting to take off...even when thats from an approved ppg launch area.

Seems that some people just dont care for other peoples fun, so they seek opportunities to have it canned. Ive even had a tradie rush out of a new house being built and hurl a rock over a cliff at me flying a paraglider (not even powered).