fanman

You had a good offer in your PM's but didn't bother to reply.

New riser set is now in place giving the ability launch with either A risers together (as standard) or split. Have also fitted ALC to the Revo. Will be flight testing over the next month and will report the results good or bad. Time to see if a silk purse can be made from a sows ear. Ok it's not that bad but it could be better (eg the tip steering kit that nearly killed me but the manufacturer isn't interested!).

Ros125 - gearbox F200 - belt drive Don't these motors turn in different directions?

I'll try to bring this clearly painful subject to a close with some basic facts to let people understand the choices they have... Some riser sets allow you to launch with the lift centered with less asymmetric leverage to take the wing off sideways. Other riser sets require the whole wing to be lifted so they can catered for by either being more specific about precise wind direction or laying out the wing in a V or similar. If nothing else I hope people are now at least more aware what the difference in the riser styles does. Hopefully understanding the above will allow people to deduce the best way to tackle launching their wings in trickier conditions as the quotes given show that previously instructed people still struggle. There, some simple points with no spin to let end users consider for themselves. I've had enough.

You and Pete have no difficulty launching with attached A's, that's no surprise. Here's a sample of quotes from the less experienced end of the scale... From... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1888 Quote Mike1714... Nil wind launches - I just have trouble forward launching with the Paramania Revolution. You get forward motion and then BANG you hit a brick wall!!!! Quote irm750... Initially I struggled like a b*****d to forward launch my revo. I was left on the ground when there was light/nil wind, scratching my head and wondering what I was doing wrong. The frustration just built more with every failed launch until I developed a bit of a Nil-wind-o-phobea, hoping for reverse conditions and dreading lighter winds. It was only when I specifically asked for someone to watch my attempts and they said that the leading edge was folding under that the penny finally dropped. I think that I had been subconciously putting more and more pressure on the A's with every failure in the mis-apprehension that this would overcome the problem. Quote Macey2kk... i have to admit that im developing that fear -- i havent tried too many times yet -- but when there is nil wind im reluctant to have a go... Quote AlanHinSaudi... I'm pleased to read that I'm not the only one that struggles with forward launches. These people are not muppets, they are regular users who struggle with the same things we all struggled with despite best attempts of set up and trying to learn how to handle the A's. My 'beef' is that when there is a possibility to design out a feature that when not quite aligned with the wind (remember the variable wind days) then it would be in the interest of the end user to incorporate it. Alternatively someone buying these style wings should be armed with the understanding why they may need to pay particular attention to their set up on certain days.

SimonW - a wonderful non-answer!!! If the wind has no set direction then you can only take a stab at what the most likely direction is and wait for it to coincide. This discussion has nothing to do with what your students do or don't do it's about whether split A's can allow a bigger tolerance for wind variation. However, you felt it necessary a year or so ago to offer specific training to anyone with a Revolution to try and ease their nil/low wind launching woes after discussion by your students that they were struggling. Jon Norton - you hit the nail on the head with the truth (rather than the idealised answer). Pete B - ALC makes life easier than tip steer so presumably you won't buy/fly a wing with ALC just in case the next wing you buy/fly doesn't have it. I have been thinking about my comment about trying my Revo on Dudek risers... I have the equipment to modify my existing Paramania risers to incorporate split A's so to make the comparison as direct as possible I shall look at going down that route. Have a few other projects to finish off first though. Much better IMO to be someone who actually acts on these ideas than someone who just theorises or says 'cos I just don't like it'!

s'funny because on the prop thread you are saying that you encourage progress Pete! I think I can see the way you want to take the discussion so I shall leave this with the reference to the excellent video Alan has made and with the actual facts I have explained and let be.

I think you are missing the point here Pete. What is a good reason for not giving our wings that are routinely launched in light and variable wings split A's?

How should a new guy lay his wing out when the wind is variable? There is no right way, you just have to wait for the wind to momentarily be right for the way you chose to set up. Split A's help to reduce the lateral asymmetry that inflated tips can give making the wing more tolerant to variations. It's all about inflating the wing with the lift centered rather than across the entire span. Good pilots can do it without split A's (especially if they use other techniques such as a V in the wing or folding the tips) but alot of these wings are being sold to guys as first wings, such as the Revo. Why is it wrong to give them the tools to make life easier? If you pull up a Plasma using all the A's it will often horseshoe as the tips lift before the center. I have had this on a Paramania wing as well before however at least the Plasma gives you the option to only load the center on launch.

Just looked at Alan K's youtube vid in the photos/videos forum. It gives a perfect demo of why split A's are helpful. You can see (later on in the vid) that the light wind is slightly from the right but when he pulls up the wing the center is properly inflated while the tips are filling as soon as they are ready. If the outer A's were tensioned then his left tip would probably be more pressurised than his right and the wing would be trying to turn to his right. Lovely demo vid Alan K.

Tony Gibson is a delightful guy to fly with. He is in Centurion which is about halfway from Jo'burg to Pretoria (about 30 mins drive). He has a Fresh Breeze Xcitor plus other trike and foot launched gear. www.ppg.co.za/fly Last time I was down there we went to this bbq shack to eat before we went flying. 1kg T bone steaks!!!

Hence Redhill Bearings for someone whose location is given as Redhill!

Absolutely right... but if you can launch without load on the outer part of the wing then so much the better. If you have to have tension on the outer part of the A's then being slightly out of wind will give one tip much more lift (and therefore asymetric leverage) than the other. Having the choice to just use the inners keeps the lifting section central, allowing the outer parts to just follow reducing the chance of the wing going off sideways. When the wind is light and variable it is impossible to set up perfectly as there is no defined wind direction. A wing that is more tolerant to the variables becomes invaluable. Perhaps the original Revo might not have got its minor reputation for being tricky to launch in low winds if it had split A's? I might try fitting some Dudek risers to mine next month and see what happens.

Neither do you need them on a Synthesis, ReAction or Nucleon but it does make it more forgiving of a set up that is slightly out of wind or not centered perfectly by not trying to lift the parts of the wing with the most asymetric leverage if misaligned (ie the tips). Split A's allow these to follow in their own time. I find my Plasma does really require the A's being split but that is probably being higher aspect ratio spread over 70 cells.

Take the original to Redhill bearings... http://www.redhillbearings.co.uk/index2.htm They will match it or better still provide you with a higher quality one. I used them for replacement bearings a couple of months ago for a Vittorazi.

Thanks for that. As far as I'm concerned it's defo the 28 you say it is. I flew a Fusion 26 a couple of times this morning and noticed that the number I couldn't decipher on my Revo was written the same way on the Fusion so am now further convinced it is what you say it is. I was quite surprised by the Fusion, it was better than I expected. The handling was really lively for a paramotor wing. I suspect this is slightly at the expense of lateral stability in rough conditions but it was certainly nice in calm weather. It had new risers that had just been fitted which needed 2 hands to pull in to a slower setting which is a shame (one hand to pull and one to hold the D riser up). The trim tabs are much better than the Revo but it is still quite hard to see the take off position. I guess it's just a case of memorising the number. Take off and landing speed was excellent but why won't Paramania give us split A's? I won't be changing from my Nucleon (the feel of the Dudek risers just oozes quality) but it is an interesting alternative. Glide performance seemed similar on both.

I seem to remember someone saying Richard Whitmarsh had one lying around a year or so ago.

Apologies for not yet replying to PM's but have been out flying yesterday evening and early this morning so haven't found time. Dan - Tandem is no use for teaching take off and landing. It is a demonstration tool rather than hands on. Ian - Andy Morrant uses a Fresh Breeze Monster and a Dudek Orca for tandem. This is exactly the same as my tandem rig. He gives people what he would describe as a taster flight on a one day course. A friend of mine did this with him however my friend then didn't do any further training with Andy as he was unconvinced that he knew where the line lay between instructor and vendor! Fine if you want to end up with a high hang point Fresh Breeze! I have spoken once to Andy and he certainly knows how to talk, but his heart is generally in the right place!

Yes, I'm sure that's what's happened here. After the tip to tip any wing got shoved in any bag. A 28 suits me better than a 26 anyway. Now just got to learn to like it...

Can't read it clearly... and there are many on here that are familiar with the individual wing.

Pete, as a tandem owner/flyer I am well placed to comment. I think tandem is under-estimated for its benefit for the training system, however its use is not perhaps how a trainee would imagine. I don't see it as a means of giving control to the student for a variety of reasons. These include... it doesn't handle like a solo rig due to inertia, different natural frequency (longer line lengths), etc., the brakes are in the wrong position for the front seat occupant, there is no throttle/kill switch for the front seat, and so on. Where it is good is for giving the front seat an introduction to the sensory experience and talking them through the decision making processes. By this I mean the front seat learns what it feels like to be suspended at altitude yet while not having to be resposible for the outcome. They learn how to get in and out of the seat and can have excellent demonstrations of how to plan a circuit and judge an approach. Other things I like to do are to get the front seat to look up at the wing while holding onto my hands (which are holding the brakes) so that they can see/feel the way we can use brakes together to control the speed of the wing and how that translates across to active flying. So yes, as long as it is considered an addition to solo training I think it is a brilliant tool that the BHPA fail to realise could be used to their benefit. The question is how many people have the right approach to be on the back of a tandem in the first place. It is a big responsibility that requires a lot of care and diligence.

I have flown a few borrowed Paramania wings over the last few years and never been quite as keen on them as I am on Dudek wings. I decided that maybe my view might change if I live with one for a while so a couple of weeks ago I bought the Revo that was logo'd up as The Channel/HP that Richard Whitmarsh flew in the tip to tip a couple of years ago. I was sold it as a 26 and that was indeed what it said on the inner bag. This morning I was removing the last of the stickers but couldn't help thinking it felt big for a 26. I had a look at the plate but the writing is not clearly distinguishable. I took some measurements of the span, chord and some primary line lengths which when compared to the manual say it is a 28. I would have thought that Richard was more likely to be on a 28 than a 26 to match his speeds closer to the more svelt chaps on their 26's. I have tried searching the relevant part of this forum but so far have been unable to find the size he was flying. Also, was the colour scheme a limited run for these wings? The orange part of the upper surface does not conform with the standard nightshade colours. Have tried a couple of flights on it so far and now knowing it might be a size bigger than I thought explains a couple of things already.

Jeffs website www.footflyer.com is invaluable too!

Some Cobra radios use an unusually long 2.5mm jack. I believe the wiring is standard but if you don't use the long jack the connections won't meet properly. IIRC there is an adapter available from Maplin that takes the standard 2 pin into a long single 2.5mm pin that should sort you out.

Not exactly. Tip steering preserves the reflex profile by creating drag at the tips from pulling the stabilo line (outermost B running to the trailing edge of the tip). ALC is using brake to the outside trailing edge (where the wing is more turned down) so yes the reflex is pulled out of this part of the wing when applied but the main load bearing part of the wing is still fully reflexed and resistant to collapse. No other manufacturer is doing production wings with ALC as yet AFAIK.