A new thread to reply to Simon.W re chase cam thread

[simon101]

Simon 

I do think this simple thread has mileage in it and scope to cover what I was referring to, but as you don’t, and it is your site, I will start a new one for it so I can answer your points.

I seem, as friends have pointed out to me, to have the ability/mis-fortune to say what others are thinking  Your thread started by pointing out that chase cam footage is both incriminating and breaking the law by “towing” an item and you were being good enough to say heads up guys don’t be doing it. My thoughts immediately went to air law and all it covers including the 500ft rule. Now as regular readers of this forum might of noticed I posted some questions re tandem flying a while back and was kindly informed by one of your “PMC qualified” instructors that there are no ratings for tandem, therefore no insurance cover. Which then leads me onto the point that should anyone really be flying tandem without adequate 3rd party insurance to cover against all the dangers that you point out on your courses and your site? I find it incredulous that as FULLY QUALIFIED AND FULLY INSURED INSTRUCTORS? That 1.you fly tandem uninsured and 2.as seen in the video break the rules that bring our sport into disrepute (500ft rule)

My next point now covers the fact that PMC instructors are all self regulated and give yourselves instructor ratings. How can you issue certificates to say that you have assessed someone and they are qualified if you first give yourselves these qualifications? Do they really hold any water? Why not use the BHPA ratings and sit their exams? It seems to me that you were assessed yourself by a PMC board of pilots which would have been chosen by yourself as you are el capitain of it all. Who is this board made up of? Other PMC pilots? I’m under the impression that you started the PMC? In which case why not use the already in place, tried and tested BHPA. After all they are the official body for foot launched pilots, at least thats the way I see it? Maybe I'm wrong and they are not? Anyway it doesn't seem good practice to be breaking CAA Air law if you want to be classed as fully qualified and insured instructors Its like a motorcycle instructor teaching all day and then going off down the road at 100mph on the back wheel. By the way all motorcycle instructors are assessed by the Driving standards agency which is the government authority for it and very regulated and assessed.

Next point and question... Do you Simon want this sport to be regulated? If it was regulated you would be in a very good position to be one of the leading schools and yes then massively profiting from all the regulation as wannabe pilots would HAVE to go through a school and get licensed. Yours would obviously be one of the leading schools and have quite a say in the way it was all administered. You already have other pilots all over the country running their own schools under the umbrella of the PMC as PMC qualified instructors. Assessed again by yourselves and issued with certificates which again don't come from any official authority or agency. Does anyone carry out regular assessments of these instructors to keep them current and make sure they are doing what they should be in the proper manner and adhering to the rules and regulations and sticking to the training programs? So would you really leave the sport if it became regulated? In my opinion you would be mad to

Don't get me wrong on this Simon and no I have never met you, but by all accounts your a top bloke and hopefully we will meet one day (come to our fly-in) but im really not having a go at anyone just raising points that I would like answers to. I’m not saying your in it for the money at all and yes it is a great lifestyle I’m saying on one hand your all for certificates and proper training but on the other not for regulation? How do the two go together and get policed correctly?

Have a chill pill?..lol, ask anyone that knows me, I regularly get my arse kicked by fellow pilots and have even been banned from flying one of our local sites as “they don't like the way I fly” Seems ok for others to do spirals so why cant I?. Seems ok for others to fly near churches taking photos but not me? The pilots that banned me fall out of the sky more often than fly in it LMAO!!! I’m sure if Pascal or Mathieu turned up at their site they would sit there jaw on the floor and start getting all wet with excitement I wont mention names but you know who you are and I would appreciate you telling me this face to face as your local instead of telling other members we don't Want his sort over here. I say they need to come and do a course with you

All the best and happy unregulated flying to all

Simon X

[simon101]

Actually, I will show him from the banned field...He has the cheek to slate my flying skills! Learn what you should be doing with your brakes and get a newbee wing until you do!

[youtubevideo]

[/youtubevideo]

[Guest]

Training and some 'self control' is what will stop us from becoming regulated in the first place.

When I started the PMC, the BHPA did not have any training syllabus for Paramotors, or a forum to chat about them. Many of the questions I asked them (when I was a member) were taken with nil interest as non of the Board from the BHPA had ever flewn a Paramotor. (this has now changed, I think)

So in my view.... Why would I go to the BHPA? they had nothing for me at all, no instructors, no sites that I can use one from... and so on... The BHPA were not set up to deal with Paramotors at the time.

I hope this helps.

SW

[alan_k]

My next point now covers the fact that PMC instructors are all self regulated and give yourselves instructor ratings. How can you issue certificates to say that you have assessed someone and they are qualified if you first give yourselves these qualifications? Do they really hold any water?

Whoa, whoa, whoa Simon101.

Everybody is entitled to their opinions without doubt, but have you followed the development of the PMC training ethos?

You are evidently a very experienced PG pilot and have a valid viewpoint from that position. IMHO PPG is sufficiently different to PG to not require previous PG experience. That's not saying it isn't very helpful of course.

Think of Simons position of wanting to offer a professional and safe approach to a sport where there is no 'official' sylabus or regulation, what would you do?

I think Simons course of development has been extemely good. He assembled a group of very well respected and experienced aviators and PPG instructors and set about defining best practice procedures for PPG training.

The fact that none of this is 'officialy assessed' doesn't diminish the depth of experience that underpins this training.

Isn't it usually the case where the most experienced will oversee the development of those with lesser experience, whether regulated or not?

Cheers,

Alan

[norbertflyer]

SimonW said "So in my view . . . . Why would I go to the BHPA? they had nothing for me at all, no instructors , no sites that I can use one from . . . and so on . . . The BHPA were not set up to deal with Paramotors at the time ."

SimonW this is not true, I've been on the BHPA PPG database since 1997, they've always had instructors since then, I had a PPG syllabus, exam, 4 day training course, several PPG sites in Marlborough.

Richard.

[Guest]

Agreed, but....

Your 4 day course could only be taken by existing Paragliding pilots or people had do do a CP course first (which takes years in many cases) . They did not have a 'Paramotor' syllabus.

Also to become an instructor was impossible, there was only 1 person at the other end of the UK who could sign people off as instructors and the training for it was 5 times as long as SAS selection!

It still ramins the case 'in my view' that the BHPA dont have a true passion for Paramotors and that they were 'bolted on' when they became popular.

SW

[aquatix]

Some good points raised. Yes there was a time when the BHPA did not want to align itself or it's free flying members with those 'black art devils' of powered flight and were happy to leave that side of things to the BMAA etc. Of course that all changed several years ago leaving the somewhat confusing (especially for beginners) situation we have now.

Any idiot can legally buy a set of equipment from ebay and self train, but nobody recommends that route even though that is how most of the pioneers of the sport started out. Equally, anyone can set up a 'paramotor school' to offer 'training' - with varying degrees of success / safety. Some 'instructors' are competent pilots but have no teaching or coaching experience (and print their own worthless "pilot licences"), some are unsafe 'mavericks' with dodgy or dangerous practices, some have put a lot of time & effort into developing a structured training program, members forum etc, and we also have some previously certified BMAA instructors who can still teach but can no longer issue qualifications. Quality of training varies massively between these individuals.

Then we have the BHPA which certainly (now) embraces powered flight (with a dedicated paramotor section in the monthly Skywings magazine), offers a structured training program leading to an internationally recognised qualification, automatic member insurance and numerous other benefits - including a unified voice to counter proposed regulations.

I am totally opposed to bureacracy and legislation in our sport (other than the basic rules which help keep everyone safe) but IMO it would be better for everyone (and the sport in general) to now be under the banner of the BHPA. Some might disagree but the benefits far outweigh any past or personal grievance with the organisation.

As to rule breaking .... I have a clean driving licence with advanced qualifications & full no claims bonus, yet I have (allegedly / knowingly) broken various rules of the Highway Code when conditions and personal judgement deemed it totally safe to do so. I apply similar self regulation to my flying, the only difference being that I don't post video of my driving exploits on the internet ..... A few armchair critics might take issue with this but I suspect most real pilots (and drivers) would choose safe judgement over arbitrary legislation every time.

[aquatix]

It still ramins the case 'in my view' that the BHPA dont have a true passion for Paramotors and that they were 'bolted on' when they became popular.

Such personal opinion is possibly clouded by early experience from years ago when it is true that most of the BHPA membership favoured 'purist' free flight, but times have changed.

Fact is the BHPA structure is democratically determined by its members - many of whom now see the advantage of powered flight, particularly with regard to UK weather. If more of the current (and upcoming) paramotor pilots joined the BHPA they would probably count for almost half of the membership - particularly as hang gliding is in decline.

Read some of the recent articles in Skywings and you will see the passion is there within the BHPA (and this is why half of the advertising in it is paramotor related).

You can train & qualify as a BHPA paramotor pilot without ever doing any free flying. Instructor courses are also available.

Realistically the BHPA is the best option for pilots - especially those opposed to further regulation. Government ministers would have a field day if they looked closely at the way unlicenced 'training' is being provided today.....

[Guest]

Then we have the BHPA which certainly (now) embraces powered flight (with a dedicated paramotor section in the monthly Skywings magazine),

I guess this is a kind of small example of what I mean.

The PMC is not a dedicated 'section' it IS 100% Paramotors.

I am not disputing that the BHPA have reacted to Paramotoring in the last few years. But I was asked, why I started it... I have answered. The fact that it has become so successful is down the the people who 'choose' to join us.

People have a choice when entering the sport. They read, and review, then they make a decision.

Our student numbers are currently in massive incline, and to the best of my knowledge we have no complaints. This one fact identifies the NEED for a choice.

I can fully understand why existing BHPA members would look in at what we do with a dim light, but if we got down to the nitty gritty, you would find nothing wrong most people just dont bother to look.

Here is a question for you, not to do anything other than highlight another point...

Who taught the BHPA 'Paramotor Instructors' how to fly them?

SW

[Guest]

" (and this is why half of the advertising in it is paramotor related)."

Come on dude.... you can't believe that!!?? The BHPA announced a big drop in advertising about a year ago.

Now then.... think about it...

Your selling Paramotors... so who do you advertise too? Paramotor pilots? well.... no is the answer. Most paramotor pilots already have there kit. PG people converting are the perfect market to sell advertising into.

The adverts are there because they are a good place to advertise to a possible 'market' of converting paragliders.

SW

[clivefreeman]

Actually, I will show him from the banned field...He has the cheek to slate my flying skills! Learn what you should be doing with your brakes and get a newbee wing until you do!

[youtubevideo]

[/youtubevideo]

Simon i think you are barking up the wrong tree. I was there when this accident happen and i dont think you can use someone else's misfortune (or near death experience) to have a go at them. Maybe a meet up with every one would be better suited for everyone, just to clear the air. I would be personally happy if you would delete this video, it was an accident end of.

Not having a go at you just my personal opinion.

[Guest]

Can we reply with screen names to keep things clear. :- ) Eg Simon101 and SimonW

SW

[aquatix]

SW, perhaps you misinterpreted my post. I was not taking a dim view of what you do - rather the opposite in some ways. There was a problem with lack of training providers which you identified and took positive steps to resolve - hats off to you. I've no doubt the quality of your training is as good as you'd find in a BHPA school and I've already stated that many current instructors were originally self taught.

Having choice is great - if there is zero threat of external regulation - but since that is not the case I believe we are better off with a large, united body of members that has a louder voice. Yes, this site is 100% paramotor (although other topics get discussed) but doesn't represent the whole UK paramotor fraternity. This could be achieved if everyone was part of the BHPA, trained to the same standard, fully insured etc. That would go a long way towards appeasing the threat of regulation.

As for the advertising, I have the evidence from the last 12 months of Skywings .... almost half of the dealer ads are offering PPG equipment. That can only serve to show the growing popularity / acceptance amongst BHPA members.

Forget the past issues of a developing sport and organisation - the best long term future must surely be a united one, promoting cross discipline acceptance and training between free flyers and motorists ?

Surely it wouldn't be too hard to gain BHPA accreditation for your school ? The benefit to students would be enormous as you could still offer quality training but with a recognised qualification and automatic insurance scheme plus long term support .....

[clivefreeman]

Actually, I will show him from the banned field...He has the cheek to slate my flying skills! Learn what you should be doing with your brakes and get a newbee wing until you do!

[youtubevideo]

[/youtubevideo]

Simon i think you are barking up the wrong tree. I was there when this accident happen and i dont think you can use someone else's misfortune (or near death experience) to have a go at them. Maybe a meet up with every one would be better suited for everyone, just to clear the air. I would be personally happy if you would delete this video, it was an accident end of.

Not having a go at you just my personal opinion.

Simon 101

[outkast]

Actually, I will show him from the banned field...He has the cheek to slate my flying skills! Learn what you should be doing with your brakes and get a newbee wing until you do!

[youtubevideo]

[/youtubevideo]

Simon i think you are barking up the wrong tree. I was there when this accident happen and i dont think you can use someone else's misfortune (or near death experience) to have a go at them. Maybe a meet up with every one would be better suited for everyone, just to clear the air. I would be personally happy if you would delete this video, it was an accident end of.

Not having a go at you just my personal opinion.

Simon 101

who was that who crashed?

[dantheman]

Surely it wouldn't be too hard to gain BHPA accreditation for your school ? The benefit to students would be enormous as you could still offer quality training but with a recognised qualification and automatic insurance scheme plus long term support .....

maybe one day the BHPA would like to have PMC accreditation ?

When I was training years ago I looked at the BHPA but did not like the look of the syllabus and it's bias for paragliding so I went with the BMAA. Unfortunately the BMAA then stopped doing paramotor training so I went with the PMC which gave me the unique oppertunity to compare the two - and they were pretty much identical (as you would expect). Since then the PMC training manual and instructors have improved so much that I can see why people are chosing to train with them. I can't see any benefits from going the BHPA route apart from getting a BHPA rating if you are into that sort of thing.

One other thing - PMC training is excellent value for money and you can get 3rd party insurance cheaper than with the BHPA, the sport is all about being the cheapest form of powered flight.

[alan]

Well chaps being a bhpa member and having met Simon W and Pete B at a fly in last year i can only say that both bodies do a fine job of keeping pilots safe and offer comprehensive training.

Every sport has its pioneers and someone has to be the first so i can not see any reason why they can not co exist.

I will always remember the words of wisdom my instructor Dean Crosby gave me whilst we were para-waiting on a mountain in Montenegro and i quote "your problem Alan is when would you not fly" my reply was when you tell me not to.

If i had come into the sport purely as a paramotor pilot I would not have any hesitation in using either of the bodies, anyway some great points put forward by Aquatix and Alan K Cheers Alan.

[Neilzy]

Can i mention that at our flyin there will be a ring and in extreme cases Paul will supply a gun!!!!!!!

Come on people this is why we do this sport, we all want to fly unregulated and free, it seems that we have got into this habit of using this forum to slag and slate other piltos/manufacturers is that really what we wnat newbies and passing would be paramotorists to read, i joined this forum because i found it very helpful and supportive, and to hear rantings and raving's of a few (i do fly a Flat Top so used to some ranting's).

I dont alway's like or agree with some of the stuff said on here but try not to use this as a medium to vent my frustration or in extreme cases hate and i dont think others should either, we are frowned upon by some in the flying industry why give them more ammuntion.

It does seem like recently that a few use this medium (not just on this site) to vent there anger and hatred of flyers & manufacturers for which ever reason they feel just, i just hope that we can stop this practice as its spoiling a rather good forum, and a bloody good sport.

[simon101]

NAME: Simon Westmore

QUALIFIACTIONS: PMC QFI

CONTACT: 07983 428 453

FLYING FOR: 11 years

TEACHING FOR: 4 years

COURSE COST: £900

Simon.w. I've just pulled the above from your training site. 4 years ago when you decided to teach there was definitely BHPA paramotoring instructor courses available that were very comprehensive and policed very well.

On your page you have testimonials from your own instructors? Biased?

I just don't see how you can give yourselves these qualifications when there is the BHPA to do it. Do you actually tell your students that what they are actually getting at the end of your courses is only recognised by PMC? Do you regulate and check other instructors that YOU QUALIFY to teach?

Its like me teaching someone to fit gas pipes and then giving them a cert to say well done off you go and do it for yourself when it means nothing as the government regulated Gas Safe Register covers all that. I'm still not saying its wrong what you are doing, im saying if your going to do it, then you need to regulate it and let students know the full picture. reading your training site comes across as the students will be getting a recognised qualification? PPG1 rating sounds very official. How does the insurance really stand with that? It wouldn't hold up in any other industry i know that. If instructors break rules then what chance have students got. If instructors break rules in any other industry they have teaching qualifications taken away. I'm sure the training manuals are very comprehensive and yes you have many students singing your praises. Students get your PPG1 rating and it is all made to sound very official, but at the end of the day its just a group of unregulated pilots saying yeah there go you can fly, join our club.

Simon.W when was the last time you actually went and checked any of the instructors that you have umbrella'd under the pmc to make sure its all being done correctly? The Driving Standards Agency send examiners to check instructors as do most industries that have training/teaching programmes. Im not saying its not being done right im saying it does need regulating by you, if you sign off instructors to teach people then you need to keep control over it all, maybe you do? I'm just asking how its all run.

[simon101]

Surely it wouldn't be too hard to gain BHPA accreditation for your school ? The benefit to students would be enormous as you could still offer quality training but with a recognised qualification and automatic insurance scheme plus long term support .....

I can't see any benefits from going the BHPA route apart from getting a BHPA rating if you are into that sort of thing.

Dan, you said "if your into that sort of thing" re the BHPA rating....The pmc shouts quite loudly about the PPG1 rating that students get when completing a course and thats is what its all about at the end of the day, A piece of paper saying yes you have been assessed and you are safe to fly. If its only about the training then why Simon.W do you have the PPG1 rating at all? Just offer the training?

[dantheman]

simon101 - give Debbie Hewitt a ring (managing director of the RAC) and tell her that the AA offers members a slightly better membership, and therefore she should merge the RAC into the AA and give her mechanics AA training and certification - plus get all her vans painted yellow, see what she says ? seems like the same type of mission that you are on now ???

[Guest]

Surely it wouldn't be too hard to gain BHPA accreditation for your school ? The benefit to students would be enormous as you could still offer quality training but with a recognised qualification and automatic insurance scheme plus long term support .....

I can't see any benefits from going the BHPA route apart from getting a BHPA rating if you are into that sort of thing.

Dan, you said "if your into that sort of thing" re the BHPA rating....The pmc shouts quite loudly about the PPG1 rating that students get when completing a course and thats is what its all about at the end of the day, A piece of paper saying yes you have been assessed and you are safe to fly. If its only about the training then why Simon.W do you have the PPG1 rating at all? Just offer the training?

In order to create a training system, you need a structure and an end point thats why.

SW

[pete_b]

OK

I am the pilot of the tandem in the video, Colin (the passenger) is another pilot and fully understands what is involved and the risks associated with it. We do not have insurance to fly tandem but as we were both in agreement about this and we were only flying over the training site with all persons present in agreement then why would we need it?

The low pass on camera was a landing practise as it was the first time we had flown the wing.

Simon was assessed the same time as myself by two long time independent well respected pilots to become instructors ensuring that safety was the main concern. This was after a three day course on the way people learn run by a person high up in BA

Currently all instructors are (except for one that is not teaching at the moment) being regularly assessed.

I am a BHPA Power and hill pilot and the reason I did not become an instructor with them is that spending two years as a Ti and then having to pay the bhpa to have MY OWN school on my own land was not acceptable. I would have no problem paying to be reassessed as and when necessary.

Sky wings have two pages for Ppg (not including adverts) out of approx. 55.

There is no reason that two separate bodies can not carry the same amount of weight with the caa (or who ever) than one body could.

Competition keeps all sides on there toes, as you have found out with the bhpa doing more for paramotoring since the PMc have been around.

Simon101 Im not sure if we have met but I think I would have remembered you if we had

Bored with this subject now as it is obvious that you are bhpa through and through and they are the only way to go.

O how they come out of the wood work when we have a spell of bad weather roll on flying time

[norbertflyer]

I remember watching two training videos from a few years ago. It showed a non bhpa instructor towing a red glider from the back of a landrover. It seemed really dangerous, breaking quite a lot of safety rules and the student looked as if he took some serious back injuries. I can't remember who was the instructor, but perhaps some will know on here. He may well not be teaching these days anyway.

Richard

[Guest]

NAME: Simon Westmore

QUALIFIACTIONS: PMC QFI

CONTACT: 07983 428 453

FLYING FOR: 11 years

TEACHING FOR: 4 years

COURSE COST: £900

Simon.w. I've just pulled the above from your training site. 4 years ago when you decided to teach there was definitely BHPA paramotoring instructor courses available that were very comprehensive and policed very well.

I disagree, I tried... did you? (you can find the details in the BHPA meeting minuets.)

On your page you have testimonials from your own instructors? Biased?

I beg to differ, non of them are instructors?

I just don't see how you can give yourselves these qualifications when there is the BHPA to do it. Do you actually tell your students that what they are actually getting at the end of your courses is only recognised by PMC? Do you regulate

Yes, they all know its not worth the paper its written on, which is exactly the same as the BHPA one (until such a point that we become regulated)

and check other instructors that YOU QUALIFY to teach?

Its like me teaching someone to fit gas pipes and then giving them a cert to say well done off you go and do it for yourself when it means nothing as the government regulated Gas Safe Register covers all that. I'm still not saying its wrong what you are doing, im saying if your going to do it, then you need to regulate it and let students know the full picture. reading your training site comes across as the students will be getting a recognised qualification? PPG1 rating sounds very official.

It is a Paramotor Club Rating, so it is official 'to us' to us it matters, again... the same as the BHPA.

How does the insurance really stand with that? It wouldn't hold up in any other industry i know that. If instructors break rules then what chance have students got. If instructors break rules in any other industry they have teaching qualifications taken away. I'm sure the training manuals are very comprehensive and yes you have many students singing your praises. Students get your PPG1 rating and it is all made to sound very official, but at the end of the day its just a group of unregulated pilots saying yeah there go you can fly, join our club.

You are of course fully entitled to your 'opinion'

Simon.W when was the last time you actually went and checked any of the instructors that you have umbrella'd under the pmc to make sure its all being done correctly?

I have to be fair and say that one is currently over due evaluation by about 3 weeks.

The Driving Standards Agency send examiners to check instructors as do most industries that have training/teaching programmes. Im not saying its not being done right im saying it does need regulating by you, if you sign off instructors to teach people then you need to keep control over it all, maybe you do? I'm just asking how its all run.

No worries.

SW