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Instructors Course Prospectus + Application


norman
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Ahh I thought so...... As a bit of a laugh and a joke I have been issuing Welsh paramotoring licences for around two years now :shock:

(it actually looks a lot better than my CAA recognized microlight licence) and on risk will insure me !!

So remember that if you fly in Wales you will need one :?

So my point is that our licence is as good as anybody elses..........???

we have even got a training program ? ....and a night rating ? instructors certificate, ? instrument rating the list goes on .....even a trike rating...(but we keep that one underwraps)

I wish you well,,,,,,,, :lol:

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We have had a few posts regarding validity, they raise interesting questions and the threads answer the questions raised. If you wander around for long enough looking for someone to endorse what you do you will find the road to nowhere.

We don't issue licenses as such, we certificate our pilots. It is an internal matter but recognition from national authorities and governing bodies generally comes for any organisation that demonstrates competence and properly administers a decent system of training and qualification.

It's never the piece of paper is it Gary- it's what's behind it?

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I was not having a go at anybody or any training method.......all training from somebody who is experienced in what they are teaching is a good thing....it might even save lives or accidents.....nobody in their right mind should attempt to fly anything without guidence......I was just trying in my own peculuar way to highlight the fact that paramotoring licences/certificates/ect are not worth the paper they are written on at least in the UK......untill the CAA recognize that particular Body.......I was most upset when the BMMA

stopped issuing licences.....I was supposed to go on a instructors course.....But after they pulled the plug I thought why bother.......

it all seems such a mess at the moment..........

I really hope you get the recognition your after

but remember no flying in wales without a WPL (Welsh Paramotoring Licence) :lol:

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LOL, I hope Gary doesn't think I was being grumpy. The weakness of the written word is that you don't get a tone from it.

I hope I am reading this right but... the BMAA like the BHPA are just organisations that have grown and become familiar. Their 'licenses' are just pieces of paper like everyone else's representing a course of training with a competency test at the end of it.

It is licensing authorities, government departments that issue licenses, the rest issue certificates of competence as judged by 'officers of the company'.

PPG requires no license in the UK as we all know, you can buy the kit and fly it. We are all aware of the potential for trouble and make our own efforts to avoid it. The PMC response is to create a training scheme for its pilots from ab initio through to instructor levels. We do it to satisfy ourselves that we are doing all we can to promote safety within our sport and to generate trust with our ensurers by defining training standards.

And all while trying to keep it as simple as we can because who likes 'effin paperwork. :lol:

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Sorry about the divert there. Couldn't help myself.

One of the things that attracts me to the PMC is the level of friendliness here, whilst maintaining a professional ethos. First of all have fun, (let's make sure its safe fun). I also read another forum (Gosh!) and they seem a little on the 'dry side'. Here I feel the fun factor is as important as the hobby. Whilst there is room for the techies, it's easier to skip over that kind of post if you want to.

The welcome I had at the flagpole the other day was great (when I was eventually able to make it) and being shown some kit up close and personal is a great spur for me to train. The biggest bit of encouragement is the fact that there is a recognised pathway to progress. Start training, have some fun near home, do some more training, have some fun further away. Do some more training, help other people to have fun on the ground, do a bit more training further away still and help people have more fun in the air. The thinking behind this means that we can keep the hobby fun and deregulated.

I for one can't wait for work to unleash me so I can train using the prospectus and get airborne again!

Tj

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One of the things that attracts me to the PMC is the level of friendliness here, whilst maintaining a professional ethos.

This is the particular characteristic that makes me happy to be a member of the PMC :D

Alan

Would that be the Pre Menstral Club or the Post Menstral Club :?:

As I know Im happier during these times, Due to being Married :D:D

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i have spoke with on risk in detail and i have aprox fifty hours so no big air time and they will insure me to teach and cover my students for 2million and my self, because i am the instructor 50 thousand. This is all third party only, so my point is anyone can be insured to teach and i cant understand why. i think the problems could come if someone was seriously injured under your care then how would it stand in a court, to be fair i really dont think onrisk care who they insure because they aint insuring a persons safety, there insuring a tree or a roof or fence or if ya lucky enough a cow ,

i am interested if anyone knows of an instructor being taken to court over an incident?

strangely i speak with bhpa people and they know of instructors who have been taken to court and the instuctor has won due to havin the bhpa credibility, however they can never remember the persons name when i ask lol. so id like to hear of some real stories of what hapened and the outcome.

i have been aproached a few times to help them out with flyin but i do tend to shy away, not due to lack of capability more to due with how the law would view it if anything happened to them.

so my solicitor says if i taught someone to ride a bike and they crash and was badly hurt i cant be blamed, and he explains its the same thing, but other solicitors have different views and id like to know the reality of it which is accurate.

sorry for goin on i find the insurance and legalities interesting on this subject

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i have spoke with on risk in detail and i have aprox fifty hours so no big air time and they will insure me to teach and cover my students for 2million and my self, because i am the instructor 50 thousand. This is all third party only, so my point is anyone can be insured to teach and i cant understand why. i think the problems could come if someone was seriously injured under your care then how would it stand in a court, to be fair i really dont think onrisk care who they insure because they aint insuring a persons safety, there insuring a tree or a roof or fence or if ya lucky enough a cow ,

i am interested if anyone knows of an instructor being taken to court over an incident?

strangely i speak with bhpa people and they know of instructors who have been taken to court and the instuctor has won due to havin the bhpa credibility, however they can never remember the persons name when i ask lol. so id like to hear of some real stories of what hapened and the outcome.

i have been aproached a few times to help them out with flyin but i do tend to shy away, not due to lack of capability more to due with how the law would view it if anything happened to them.

so my solicitor says if i taught someone to ride a bike and they crash and was badly hurt i cant be blamed, and he explains its the same thing, but other solicitors have different views and id like to know the reality of it which is accurate.

sorry for goin on i find the insurance and legalities interesting on this subject

If you were to get sued for an injury or death of someone you were training £50k is no where near enough, in this claim for every thing society that we have become, so anything over that would come out of YOU and what you own (that's if the insurance did pay up).

If their barrister could prove that you were negligent in any way you could also be looking at a spell in side

As I understand it the PMC instructors syllabus has been checked by some of the top law people in the country (and Onrisk themselves) and there would be very very little chance that they could sue for negligence or anything similar as long as you have followed the syllabus as it is written.

The cover I have as an instructor is £2,000,000 and I think you will find that the premium I pay is less than what you would have to pay for £50k.

This is what I personally understand, but may be informed differently by anyone that knows better

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I also spoke to the bhpa when the BMAA pulled out of teaching/training ......I told them that I had been helping a few people in my area familiarization (big word) with the wing , ground handling, progressing to small hops without the engine on ......and getting them used to the motor on their back even when safe starting it up to get the feel of the power (PAP ROS 125) .....they never got the chance to wreck my precious gear......then I told them if they wanted to go further they then had to buy there own gear ,,,,and we will then take it further .............................. Some of them did ?........

the responce I got from the bhpa was all negative .....Somebody is being sued right now for doing what you are doing and You will get sued and have to sell your house .....You wouldnt let someone sit in your microlight and waft the wings about and start the engine would you :!: ( I Have ) Ive even let them fly it from the back seat

....... Youve got to jjoin the bhpa to train people I was told ........OH and it will cost you ,,,,,,So much to join ..So much to go on a course...So much to learn to teach ...then this much for insurance.....after that......

I might have had to sell my house to cover all the expenditure they wanted :!:

ps Ive been told that the BMAA (allegedly) pulled out of teaching because they were not happy with the training syllabus as it was and gave the people who were carring out instruction on the BMAA"s behalf a period of time to come up with another program..... months later nothing had been done :?: and didnt look like anything was being done .. So they pulled the plug..... :cry:

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Hi Gary,

What you say is really interesting and conforms to a pattern I have heard others discuss. I can't comment too much as I have limited personal experience of the BHPA and do not wish to enter a destructive circle of criticism, claim and counter claim. What I will say is that some of the contact I have had with them has been very positive, some less so. I can't see a point in the future where I would join but hey ...

As for the BMAA, I hear nothing but good about them. As I understand it you are correct. They were unsure about the whole business of PPG, had problems administering their system, had a legal problem of sorts and decided to withdraw. I understand Mike Cambell-Jones was involved at some stage but don't have information detailed enough to repeat what I have heard.

To others I would say, if you like what you see with the way the PMC is going then great. If you don't please say so and kick off a rethink. :lol:

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if you got tow million cover then it is the same cover, i would be interested in gaining the names of lawers who have checked the sylibus , because i have spoke with a few lawers and they all have different opinions on the teaching matter, i think anyone who is actually teaching really does want this to be crystal clear, i know i would, the problem i have found is , there is negligence which is a big thing, but also because there is no licence to do this then no sylibus is worth anything in the eyes of the law,there is only negligence. once a student is in the air you are then out of control and the responsibility becomes the students. it becomes a very different story if the student is under age. this is what i have gained from speaking with law people. so if someone would like to give me names of lawers who have checked and accepted this i would be very greatfull, because i really do feel it needs to be crystal clear

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Leoibb,

I wonder what sort of reply you would get if you asked the BHPA for the names of their lawyers so that you could "check out" the quality of their legal advice?

...but also because there is no licence to do this then no sylibus is worth anything in the eyes of the law,

Please read this in a gentle voice, I am not trying to beat you with it. LOL

I would question this statement. An organisation's administrative structure is something that is examined very closely during litigation for the quality of advice it offers and the way in which it leads the players to act etc.

There are several ways of looking at this. If we write nothing down, then lawyers can have a field day with the absence of words. If you write anything down they can take issue with what you write. We are talking about the two ends of this argument.

The lack of a syllabus and for that matter any guidance for flying operations says an awful lot in 'the eyes of the law'. NOT producing documentation and guidance for members and instructors makes a bold negative statement about the competence of the organisation and potentially leaves it wide open to attack in a courtroom imho.

We are probably outlining the problems the BMAA have had and the reason they withdrew from PPG though they face (as does the BHPA and others) exactly the same issue with their other activities.

Remember, we started from a position where we had nothing written down nor was (or is) anything required to be written down by (aviation) law. We are doing these things for PMC purposes to better administrate what we are doing and demonstrate the fact. I think you will find that Onrisk are very satisfied with what we have shown them.

As for insurance cover for instructors, some have third party cover with no cover for their instructing activities, others - who knows? Our moves are incremental, each building on the last and we hope to reach a point soon where ALL the questions we have in our minds have been answered. It takes time and .... money.

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yes i did that a few month ago not a lot gained to make me think you are protected, this was from there legal team a bit wishy washy, so if they cant be clear then the high lawers ya refer to really must know something other lawers dont.

why not have everything out on the table ?????

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I don't make reference to (PMC) Lawyers specifically leoibb. I don't own the PMC or have any financial part in it. This is Simon's Club, I help out with the washing and ironing. :lol:

One more thing to add, as we all know well, in the insurance world like any other, you get what you pay for. Third Party cover can be sketchy and the small print needs reading. After the small print has done its job the Loss Adjusters move it to limit the underwriters liability if he can. There is no such thing as a guarantee with insurance, we get the best cover we can for a reasonable price don't we? Does any other organisation have a policy in place for its instructors with the Simon has negotiated?

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