Farmer_Dave Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Sorry Alan. I didn't realise someone had been injured on this equipment. I must've missed the details. Please pass them on mate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecsstefan Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 Thank you guys for your support in finding a suitable wing for me. I went with Nige's apco thrust, can't wait to fly it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 Congratulations - it must be exciting to know the freedom of the sky is a step closer now ! A good, safe choice of first wing that should give you confidence throughout your training and all those memorable first flights....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Sorry Alan. I didn't realise someone had been injured on this equipment. I must've missed the details. Please pass them on mate. Sorry mate - I should have said that I don't want to see anyone misled or injured through bad advice. I've been out flying every day this week so was a bit tired when I wrote that..... Anyway Alan K already posted a link on the previous page which mentions the serious injuries caused by Dell's equipment: http://www.footflyer.com/Misc/Powered_Paragliding_Association_Sham/world_powered_paragliding_associ.htm I still maintain my opinion (supported by facts) that the K2 is not the best choice of wing for a PPG beginner, and most seem to agree. As you are an experienced pilot you are free to make up your own mind and buy one if you believe Dell's claims that it is the safest, best performing and most amazing wing available, and "the biggest advance in paragliding technology ever achieved".... Since you choose to fly a Nucleon (like me) which he describes as a dangerously unsafe pile of crap, I will assume we are in agreement about his lies and leave it at that ? I think FootFlyer puts it nicely: "Do yourself a favor, do your friends a favor, do the sport a favor and stay as far away as possible from dealing with this unethical sham that is Dell Schanze, U-TurnUSA and Flattop Paramotors. Do us all a favor and don't be an enabler of this incredibly unethical behavior." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Alan I'm glad to be 50% in favour with you. That's something atleast. But I didn't choose the Nucleon to be like you or anyone else. I chose it because I'm more than capable of deciphering information and making my own mind up. Which is what I did when I bought my well powerfull, well sturdy motor that doesn't chew a prop when it feels like it. However. In order to regain whatever popularity I may have had (or not) I will agree to selling said beast if you seriously think I'll be doing everyone such a favour ? Do let me know. I might ask something in return if you seriously want me to go through with it though. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted March 5, 2011 Share Posted March 5, 2011 Hi (again) Dave, I never suggested you copied me - since you bought your Nucleon before I did - merely that we made the same informed decision. You hit the nail on the head though - the point of this thread is that a beginner is not as "capable of deciphering information" as you, so we should help them avoid expensive mistakes - especially when one person floods the internet with lies and misinformation just for personal gain. Anyway, all is good since you, me, and the OP beginner all chose NOT to purchase a K2.... Why talk of selling your FT I've never suggested they are a bad machine, just not the world's best, safest, indestructible or any of the other BS that Dell spouts about them..... We both know that Dell's claim to be the FT designer is a lie (it was Viktor Prochazka of Walkerjet) although he has made a couple of minor improvements (not necessarily the name or cage design which were both done to resemble his haircut !) I certainly considered it when I last upgraded my machine, and for me the cons outweighed the pro's - the worst flaw (other than Dell) being the excessive torque steer with no attempt to offset it. It does have a number of good features (strength being one) and although I eventually chose the Kobra Evo I would never claim it to be perfect or flawless, just better for me personally. Why don't we do a subjective comparison at the next fly-in ? Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hi Alan If we meet at a fly in I'd certainly make my machine available for some comparisons and probably enjoy the excercise. Paramotors are one of my favourite interests. I'd be happy to replace my Atis2 with a K2 by the way. I also note that Sky Paragliders have just splashed a video of their K2's being used for PPG all over Facebook. Not saying you're wrong of course but it seems to be gaining momentum. I'll monitor my friends K2's as they clock up the hours and keep you posted, as I have with my motor, bolts on exhaust breaking and a line wrap around the prop bending the frame section. Subjective enough maybe ? You missed the last part of my last post. Just wondered why ? Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 Hi Dave, Yes, you would get some exercise just lifting the Kobra (it is too damn heavy) but I will go in to the comparison more on another thread, since this one is about wings... I'd be happy to replace my Atis2 with a K2 by the way. You would be foolish not to replace the Atis and that ultra dangerous Nucleon with the amazing K2 wonderwing, since it has such amazing safety and performance that makes every other wing obsolete and redundant. What colour will you get ? Not saying you're wrong of course but it seems to be gaining momentum. It has had over 6 years to gain recognition amongst the free flying and PPG fraternity, so how come Dell is the only one peddling it's awesomeness ? Perhaps he should promote it a bit more - maybe on the internet or perhaps a Youtube video so we can all see how good it is ? Clearly none of the top UK pilots have heard of the K2 (or perhaps it is banned for being way too good ?) as they all seem to be opting for Dudek or Paramania wings ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon101 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 QUOTE from Alan.....Clearly none of the top UK pilots have heard of the K2 (or perhaps it is banned for being way too good ?) as they all seem to be opting for Dudek or Paramania Or the very precise and lovely Ozone wings. Ozone wings frickin awsome man!! (that is how to big them up isnt it?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 If only they would "big them up" Ozone make some superb PG wings so the Viper 2 should be pretty damn good .... unfortunately it is yet another PPG wing that only comes in 3 sizes, and just too small for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukppg Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Alan. Why dont you come over to UKPPG in Cambridgeshire and actually try out a SKY Cima K2, and then you can factually quote on it performance, speed, efficiency, safety and most of all suitablility for all levels of pilots including Beginners. As the UK and Ireland PPG Dealer for SKY PPG wings I have read all of the unexperienced comments of the K2 and I now ask you and anyone else that would like to rise to the challenge, to actually come and try out this superb SKY product for yourself. For the Record, (and taking your best friend Mr Super Dell out of the equation) the K2 is a very popular wing for PPG use and yes it is slightly modified at the factory with PPG risers, trimmers and stronger lines to the Standard mountain glider PG version of the same model. I use and sell the K2 with the utmost of confidence in the product and can honestly say that it is one of the most secure and stable wings that I have ever flown and by far the easiest and most forgiving to take off and land with... Everyone that has Test flown the K2 or actually own one all say the same and I know some very experienced UK pilots in amongst that list. Please feel free to give us a call on 07544 659840 to arrange a free day with us and while you are here you could always try out the NEW Lightweight 2011 Flattop NINJA or EC Extreme Moster (23.00Kg) and compare them at the same time. Cheers Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukppg Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I meant to say that the PPG weights are not yet listed on the SKY website but to calculate this you can add upto 33% of the PG Total certified take-off weight (kg) which can be found on the SKY website http://en.sky-cz.com/products/gliders/cima-k2/ to calculate the PPG weight which is quoted by SKY paragliders themselves, being the Manufacturers. This information can also be found factually quoted on their facebook page which is: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_127108847342142&id=161267110592982#!/pages/Sky-Paragliders/170454950333 I hope this clears up any quiries that may also be floating around at the moment. If any comp pilots out there would like to fly the K2 in competition this year then please get in touch with us as we / UKPPG would be very happy to talk about sponsoring you for 2011 / 2012. Nigel UKPPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Nigel, How could I possibly refuse such a personal (and open) invitation ? I will arrange a date, as per our previous telephone conversations - and come armed with my trusty vario & GPS for accurate comparisons. I promise not to just drag it lifelessly across the ground and call it "a piece of crap" like friend Dell does in all his objective "wing comparisons" ..... I don't use facebook so I will have to trust it is safe to fly 33% over the certified weight range (which the Kobra will take me to on the largest size) but it should be a lot less on the lighter Ninja and EC26 motors. For the record I have never questioned the quality of Sky wings in general, just the hype surrounding this particular 6 year old design. I fully expect it to be much easier to inflate (at half the weight of either of my current wings) and it should be as safe as any bog standard classification wing - with such a low aspect ratio and number of cells. It will be a novelty as I've only ever flown DHV1/2 (EN B) and above since my very first flights on a 1997 Edel Atlas .... Speed & agility should also be adequate (for a non reflex wing) since it will be so heavily overloaded - but I will still doubt the longevity of Skytex 27 when stressed beyond its limits when all other manufacturers opt for the stronger (but heavier) Porcher 40 (or similar) fabric. A few proviso's though: No YouTube video's in case Dell thinks I've switched allegiance. I will happily report if it is "totally freakin awesome" - or not. Oh, and if I do any wing tip drags, land on a passing jeep, or dump the Ninja & K2 into the nearest lake, thats just me trying to go for the whole 'Dell experience'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukppg Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Nicely put Alan and I cant wait, it will be a great experience for both of us and No Youtubing as requested. Speak to you soon, Nigel UKPPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I don't use facebook so I will have to trust it is safe to fly 33% over the certified weight range (which the Kobra will take me to on the largest size) but it should be a lot less on the lighter Ninja and EC26 motors. For the record I have never questioned the quality of Sky wings in general, just the hype surrounding this particular 6 year old design. : You can work out if your inside the recommended wing loading from the picture below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Hi Simon - that was one of my original concerns over this wing. The 3.9kg/sq m loading applies to the Cima with stronger Skytex 36 fabric - not the thinner, lighter (& weaker) Skytex 27 Flying at almost double the recommended wing loading is almost unheard of - even by competition pilots. Yes it will make a wing more collapse resistant - but on the downside more prone to spin and stall, even before you factor in fabric and cell distortion from prolongued use. I fly my Nucleon at the manufacturers ideal wing loading and know it will perform as designed and tested. I can't find the original test report for the standard Cima (done by Air Turquoise on 21/04/05) and nothing for the K2 with trimmers - not even a load test or online manual. Not saying it was a bad wing for its intended use (occasional mountain flying), but still struggling to see what special qualities make it recommended for PPG use (especially beginners) over any of the more modern designs from the past 6 years. I guess I will have to wait & see on the test flight ...... Nigel knows his stuff so I will try to keep an open mind - but all wings work on the same principles so I'm interested why the claims for this wing appear to defy the laws of physics ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dede2008 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Hey Alan, any updates on your tests? Did you try it at the end? Let us know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Hi dede, after speaking with Nigel last month he wanted me to wait a couple of weeks as he was expecting some new stock. Since then I've been flying loads and not had an update, but hopefully will get down there soon as I've now refitted my camper with a better bed. I'll be taking a couple of my own wings for fair comparison in the same conditions, but I'm fairly certain the K2 will perform exactly as I expect: an easier inflation than my Nucleon (and probably easier than my Eden 4) due to it's light weight, reasonably quick for a non reflex wing and stable (both due to overloading), but a worse sink rate (for same reasons). I don't expect it to have any major vices but neither do I expect any "total awesomeness"..... My main reservation is the ultralight fabric, as this is not even popular with hill flyers who have to hike with the things - unless it is only as a second wing for travel or really long mountain climbs. I've seen several lightweight wings suffer damage from only mild abuse that normal wings would shrug off. The second issue is that of overloading it by 30% or so. Not only does this make for unequal comparison, but it is a potentially very dangerous practice - especially in the hands of a beginner - hence the issue about it not being a "Newbie wing". Flying over this Easter weekend I witnessed 4 major collapses & cascades in the space of 2 hours, some with very experienced pilots, and had a couple of small deflations / assymetrics myself. Thankfully all were flying wings in the certified weight range and nobody was injured (other than maybe their underwear). Who knows what could have happened if they were flying well outside the certified range, or how the insurance may have viewed this - particularly if they were flying a wing designed and marketed for a different purpose ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukppg Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Hi Alan, The New Demo Stock should arrive this week as they are currently in transit to us and as for the collapses this weekend we was flying K2's all weekend and did not get one single collapse Nor tuck, and I believe you would have had exactly the same weather conditions as we experienced. I will let you know as soon as the wings are in, Nigel UKPPG 07544 59840 Hi dede, after speaking with Nigel last month he wanted me to wait a couple of weeks as he was expecting some new stock. Since then I've been flying loads and not had an update, but hopefully will get down there soon as I've now refitted my camper with a better bed.I'll be taking a couple of my own wings for fair comparison in the same conditions, but I'm fairly certain the K2 will perform exactly as I expect: an easier inflation than my Nucleon (and probably easier than my Eden 4) due to it's light weight, reasonably quick for a non reflex wing and stable (both due to overloading), but a worse sink rate (for same reasons). I don't expect it to have any major vices but neither do I expect any "total awesomeness"..... My main reservation is the ultralight fabric, as this is not even popular with hill flyers who have to hike with the things - unless it is only as a second wing for travel or really long mountain climbs. I've seen several lightweight wings suffer damage from only mild abuse that normal wings would shrug off. The second issue is that of overloading it by 30% or so. Not only does this make for unequal comparison, but it is a potentially very dangerous practice - especially in the hands of a beginner - hence the issue about it not being a "Newbie wing". Flying over this Easter weekend I witnessed 4 major collapses & cascades in the space of 2 hours, some with very experienced pilots, and had a couple of small deflations / assymetrics myself. Thankfully all were flying wings in the certified weight range and nobody was injured (other than maybe their underwear). Who knows what could have happened if they were flying well outside the certified range, or how the insurance may have viewed this - particularly if they were flying a wing designed and marketed for a different purpose ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Hi Nigel, Quick response there .... I'll hopefully see you soon then. As for the weather, I can guarantee it was different where I was flying since I was up in the hills without the motor. Saturday at LLangollen was very active at times and there were 2 distinct trigger points that every now and then just released a bubble that knocked wings out of the sky. Some onboard footage here:[youtubevideo] [/youtubevideo] (about 1.5 minutes in) plus some aerial footage of other incidents here: [youtubevideo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6w048iEEhQ[/youtubevideo] [youtubevideo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zftVa8qzvXs&NR=1[/youtubevideo] Sunday I was up over Lord's Seat when a 30mph gust front came through ahead of the cold front, causing wave and 8m/s average lift towards some very large convective clouds. It took over 15 minutes of spirals and big ears with speedbar to avoid going up into airspace at 4500 feet ! Must say that I prefer gentler stuff with the motor, even though the Nucleon is rock solid. It is dangerously 'Dellesque' to suggest the K2 is somehow indestructible and would not have tucked or collapsed in the same air. ALL paragliders collapse, and although an overloaded glider may resist it slightly more, the end result is likely to be more violent and dramatic. Anyway, I'll be hoping for good weather for these test flights ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukppg Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Hey Alan, I did not quote nor suggest that the K2 is somehow indestructible and would not have tucked or collapsed in the same air. We all know that ALL paragliders can collapse, and yes an overloaded glider may resist it slightly more, with the end result likely to be more violent and dramatic. But why fly an overloaded Glider? See you soon Nigel UKPPG Hi Nigel,Quick response there .... I'll hopefully see you soon then. As for the weather, I can guarantee it was different where I was flying since I was up in the hills without the motor. Saturday at LLangollen was very active at times and there were 2 distinct trigger points that every now and then just released a bubble that knocked wings out of the sky. Some onboard footage here: (about 1.5 minutes in) plus some aerial footage of other incidents here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6w048iEEhQhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zftVa8qzvXs&NR=1 Sunday I was up over Lord's Seat when a 30mph gust front came through ahead of the cold front, causing wave and 8m/s average lift towards some very large convective clouds. It took over 15 minutes of spirals and big ears with speedbar to avoid going up into airspace at 4500 feet ! Must say that I prefer gentler stuff with the motor, even though the Nucleon is rock solid. It is dangerously 'Dellesque' to suggest the K2 is somehow indestructible and would not have tucked or collapsed in the same air. ALL paragliders collapse, and although an overloaded glider may resist it slightly more, the end result is likely to be more violent and dramatic. Anyway, I'll be hoping for good weather for these test flights ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Hey Alan,I did not quote nor suggest that the K2 is somehow indestructible and would not have tucked or collapsed in the same air. We all know that ALL paragliders can collapse, and yes an overloaded glider may resist it slightly more, with the end result likely to be more violent and dramatic. But why fly an overloaded Glider? See you soon Nigel UKPPG Hey Nige, maybe just semantics but there was a suggestion that we were all in the same air and the K2's stayed solid whilst other makes of glider collapsed. That was not the case and I'm only being pedantic since beginners are likely to read this particular thread and may reach the wrong conclusion. Generally speaking, modern gliders are safer than designs from over 6 years ago. As for flying an overloaded glider, I wouldn't usually (and certainly would not recommend it for a beginner). My all up weight for motoring or free flight is usually in the middle or upper third of the certified weight range. The total certified take-off weight of the Sky Cima K2 covers 65 - 118kg across the 3 sizes in the range, which is insufficient for most paramotorists (or me particularly). Dell states all over the internet that overloading the K2 improves it's stability & speed, and you stated earlier that "the PPG weights are not yet listed on the SKY website but to calculate this you can add upto 33% of the PG Total certified take-off weight (kg) ". Well I guess they've only had 6 years to publish a certified PPG weight range (if they are willing to certify it for motor flight) but I ain't seen any such certification yet ...... That said, I've just shed 1.5kg's and I'm willing to fast before the test flight, plus my missus has just ramped up my life insurance policy so still looking forward to it. See you soon, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dede2008 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Flying over this Easter weekend I witnessed 4 major collapses & cascades in the space of 2 hours, some with very experienced pilots, and had a couple of small deflations / assymetrics myself. Thankfully all were flying wings in the certified weight range and nobody was injured (other than maybe their underwear). Who knows what could have happened if they were flying well outside the certified range, or how the insurance may have viewed this - particularly if they were flying a wing designed and marketed for a different purpose ..... Right you got me worried there Alan thinking it was paramotoring collapses you were talking about. Never seen 4 collapses in paramotoring in the same day (or year, or my whole paramotoring career for that matter Now free flying is a different beast altogether, so everything fits in place. Your collapse looked quite a serious one, of maybe it was just the camera perpective. Was it on Eden 4? What kind of collapse was it? It must have been a really tubolent day as I have flown an Eden 4 myself free flying in turbolent air and it behaves impeccably, I have put myself into quite bumpy spring alpine air with it testing the collapse resistence and I have to say you can throw a lot to it without major consequences! Fun and nice wing all in all! Looking forward your tests! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbertflyer Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Careful, this statement is only generally true because the summer conditions in which a club PG flys is 'normally' considerably more active than those conditions in which a club PPG flys. Winter conditions are entirely different, as are the skills of comp pilots in both disciplines. I have had just one small PPG collapse (wing tip) this year, in nearly 60 hours of mostly thermic flying on an ENC PG wing. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dede2008 Posted April 28, 2011 Share Posted April 28, 2011 Careful, this statement is only generally true because the summer conditions in which a club PG flys is 'normally' considerably more active than those conditions in which a club PPG flys. Winter conditions are entirely different, as are the skills of comp pilots in both disciplines.I have had just one small PPG collapse (wing tip) this year, in nearly 60 hours of mostly thermic flying on an ENC PG wing. Richard Hi Richard, I dont know which statement you were referring to, but if it was mine stating I've never seen 4 paramotor collapses, then there is little to argue about, it's a fact I havent seen that much collapses That doesnt imply anything about paramotoring safety, though. Its true that a collapse while paramotoring is an event you probably experience only once in your lifetime, but as you said already, its because of the calm conditions you normally fly with compared to free flying. Now, it has probably been said already million of times, but calm air is normally the rule to go flying with a paramotor. There is a misconception about reflex wings for example, in that some people might think they allow to fly in conditions you would not even open your wing normally. That is wrong in my opinion. Reflex wings are great, because they allow you to do more things in the condition you normally fly (you get more speed, travel further and have a wider safety window in case condition become stronger), not to do the same things you normally do in much stronger conditions. This just raises the risk bar to unconfortable levels and one should be always aware of this. Cheers d. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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