alecsstefan Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Hi, I just got a fly products top 80 paramotor and looking for a wing. Let me start by telling you that I'm new to this sport and need a easy to fly and safe wing to pair with the top 80. I weigh 72kg without gear. I've read about how good is the sky k2 cima but is so hard to find second hand and very expensive new. What other wing would be comparable to the cima? How about the apco force and paramania fusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon101 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Hi. as your new i would say stay away from the fusion. and get some help. ozone are great wings. good luck simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_d. Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Got a medium apco thrust ppg/pg needing a home, 40 hours 850 quid. Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) The Sky K2 Cima is a slow and outdated 6 year old design, lightweight mountain glider - NOT certified for motor flight. Only one 'totally awesome / insane' whack-job recommends this wing all over YouTube ..... The Apco Thrust is a modern, very safe and well built wing, certified for motor and free flight use - ideal for a beginner to learn on a non-reflex wing. They make a good second-hand buy as the fabric is siliconised so no issues with porosity. A friend of mine has a medium Thrust at a good price and hardly used - as he has a Synthesis for motor and a Tequila 2 for free flight. Let me know if you are interested and I will pass you his number. **EDIT** - Nigel just beat me with his post, and his wing looks even better priced so grab a bargain ! Edited February 23, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padeakin Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The Apco Force is a modern, very safe and well built wing, certified for motor and free flight use - ideal for a beginner to learn on a non-reflex wing. Why are you recommending the Apco Force for a beginner wing to learn on? isn't it a full reflex EN C rated wing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecsstefan Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 The apco thrust looks good but the M size seems a little smaller for my weight as it is rated for 80-100kg and I'll be around 105Kg with the paramotor. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivefreeman Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The thrust is perfect for you, you was looking at paragling not paramotor. Medium is 85-135 for paramotor this is from apco website. http://www.apcoaviation.com/products.as ... uct=thrust S M L XL Pilot Weight (all up) P/M [kg] 70-115 85.135 100-155 110-180 Pilot Weight (all up) P/G [kg] 65-85 80-100 95-120 110-140 Thanks hope this helps Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecsstefan Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 Sorry, my mistake, so the apco thrust seems like a good buy for me right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Why are you recommending the Apco Force for a beginner wing to learn on? Sorry, typing mistake - I meant the THRUST. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony_walsh Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Dear alecsstefan I have just a little over forty hours paramotoring done now. As soon as I did my course and got my equipment I picked up an Apco Thrust (M). It has been great. Last Summer I used it on a paragliding course with Steve Griffiths at the Mid Wales Paragliding Centre and then in October I went on the Paramotorclub.org Spain paramotoring holiday with Simon Westmore and the boys. The wing has been wonderful and in pretty rough conditions it was steady and safe. When you do your course try out different wings and see how they feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Hi, how much does your friend ask for the apco force wing including shipping to London? Hi, it was a typing mistake - I meant Thrust, not Force. The Fusion & Force are not as safe to learn on (EN:C), so I would snap up Nigel's wing as it is close enough for you to inspect it first. You won't lose out at that price even if you sell it on once you have got a good few hours of flying done, and it is probably one of the easiest wings to learn with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poz Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Also, you should consider the Paramania Revolution. Now they have brought out the revo2, you should be able to pick up one pretty cheap. I learned on this wing and it was superb. I've now got the revo2 and it's been brilliant so far. A lot of people buy the wing that they learned on for obvious reasons. Good luck with your choice. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I learned on this wing and it was superb. I've now got the revo2 and it's been brilliant so far. and I've got an almost brand new Revo2 for sale .... £1850 if your quick ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padeakin Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 The Apco Thrust would probably be my first choice for a beginner wing. I would recommend being in the top half of the weight range to get a more stable and solid feel (and faster). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecsstefan Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 found 2 options in my budget: apco thrust size M and the gin boost size M. I now know that apco thrust is a good wing but how about the boost? I do not find much info over the internet about it. Here are the specs for the gin boost: http://www.gingliders.com/paragliding/boostppg-spec.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 I now know that apco thrust is a good wing but how about the boost? The Thrust has better glide ratio, better sink rate, wider speed range (& trimmers) plus more ... The Boost is OK as a school glider for initial training but not much else. No contest over which is better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 The Sky Atis 2 is a close cousin to the K2 Cima (if that's the kinda wing you were looking for) and there are secondhand ones around. And both the Atis2 and K2 are faster than the Thrust. Thrust HP might be a tad faster but might not be a choice for learning, looking at the cert. A couple of my friends fly the K2. They wont sell them though ) because they really like them. ps. Sky wings are made in Europe and come direct to this country, not via USA Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivefreeman Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 You should also consider a dudek synthesis, thers a couple on ebay right now probably the safest wing on the market. With full refex and speed. But you cant go wrong , or will strugle to beat money wise Nigels wing. Got a medium apco thrust ppg/pg needing a home, 40 hours 850 quid. Nige Thanks Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 both the Atis2 and K2 are faster than the Thrust. Hi Dave, I know you are a fan of Dull Scamz but I didn't think he had brainwashed you into ignoring the facts ?? The Thrust (PPG) has better sink rate, speed and glide ratio than the Cima K2, but more importantly it is purpose designed, load tested and certified for power flight. The Cima was released at the beginning of 2005 and was a nice enough glider for its time. The K2 is the ultralight mountain version, with thinner, lighter fabric and lines - designed for hike & climb, vol bivouac etc, but NOT powered flight. Most motor gliders are heavier built than their free flying equivalents, and there isn't one ultralight mountain glider on the market recommended for PPG. This topic has come up on other forums and usually gets drowned out by Dell's rantings, but it is one thing for an experienced pilot to fly an overloaded wing at uncertified weight, but another thing to recommend it to a beginner when there are better (potentially safer) certified alternatives. I think the designers and manufacturers know more about their products than the unqualified opinions of one man (even if he does claim to be "totally freaking awesome"), so I will leave the facts to them: Cima K2: http://en.sky-cz.com/products/gliders/cima-k2/ Thrust: http://www.apcoaviation.com/products.asp?section=paragliders&product=thrust#performance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 You can read all you like Alan. Which of the wings in question have you flown ? Me and my cous both fly the Atis and our friend flys the thrust. We all have trimmers. We are as fast as him when he has trims up. When we go trims up we pi** past him. Better glide and less fuel use too. And his hangs back whilst groundling, and pulls him back over into the turtle when he turns to launch from a reverse. Neither you or Schanze will brainwash me Alan. I just go with what I find to be good for me. I've flown the Atis 2 for almost 3 years and like it's feel very much. Flown others too. BTW. Why you selling your Revo 2 so soon ? regards Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Since you ask Dave, I've flown the Atis 2 (XL), Thrust 09 (L and XL) with and without motor, and personally owned or flown over 20 different wings (mainly free flying) from most of the big companies. The Atis 2 is a great wing and the latest Atis 3 one of the best in its class. I almost bought an Antea and (for the record) Sky make great gliders, although I personally favor Gradient and Mac Para (free flying) as my choices are slightly dictated by my being top of the weight range for some makes. Anyway, you are going off topic - which was specifically about a Cima K2 as a Newbie wing .... How about giving one good reason why any sane person would recommend an overloaded ultralight mountain glider for motoring, above all the purpose built alternatives ? Why would anyone even consider this if it wasn't for the internet rantings of one man ?? As for your mate falling over, perhaps you should help with his technique ? It never happened to me (or any of the people I know who still own Thrusts) and I would still say it is one of the easiest wings to launch & land with a motor. I saw a guy fail a launch today on an Ozone Buzz, so maybe I should start a rumor that Ozone wings are bad ? Same with speeds - did you all have identical wing loading and motor / harness combinations to equalise drag ? Lets leave it to the controlled tests by Alain Zoller and such like. WRT selling the Revo2, it is mainly financial reasons and having too many wings, but although there are pro's & cons with every wing I prefer the agility of the Nucleon ALC system at full trim speeds to the Revo wingtip steering. I'll keep anything else for a different thread. Finally, in the interests of a balanced, reasoned argument I will let our sensible friend from Utah explain why the k2 is the world's best glider because "you can fly it in a snow storm" (and drive in snow with no hands or seatbelt if you own a k2) Have fun & fly safe ! [youtubevideo] [/youtubevideo] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I'm asking out of ignorance here, is the K2 and similar light weight gliders any easier to launch because they are light weight? I don't have any problems with launch BTW, cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Alan K. Yes I think the light weight plays a part in ease of launch, inflation etc. And partly because it flys well, it will come up well and set straight above, giving lift earlier than some wings, in the run to take off. Tother Alan. Our friend on his small Thrust with us on our large Atis 2's. I was probably loading heaviest with the other 2 about equal. With respect Alan, the author of the thread was asking about the K2 and was obviously interested in trying one. All I have tried to do is provide him with a similar and affordable alternative. I'm not surprised at your reaction. You do seem to be a bit obsessed with Dell Schanze. But as I said before, the Sky wings are made in Europe and come directly to the UK. What does surprise me is that you tell the author the K2 is slow and then proceed to recommend an even slower one, especially as you've now revealled that you owned and enjoyed flying an Atis2 yourself. Did you just freefly it, or did you give it a go with trimmers and motor too ? Just out of genuine interest regards Dave ps. Perhaps I should change back to Farmer Dave. Would that help ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padeakin Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I'm asking out of ignorance here, is the K2 and similar light weight gliders any easier to launch because they are light weight?I don't have any problems with launch BTW, cheers, Alan Generally lightweight wings come overhead easier and are easier to keep there. Usually wings that were designed as paramotor wings will be designed for higher loadings, they will be heavier, have thicker lines more stitching and more bracing, which helps them keep shape when heavily loaded. Many lighter paraglider wings perform very well with a motor, I fly a paraglider wing that has exceptional performance with power. I can keep up with most reflex wings and use less fuel, but potential purchases should not only consider performance (which sometimes means lightweight) but also build quality and longevity. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Dave, we both know the Atis 2 is a higher end wing and faster than both the Thrust and Cima. All things being equal a Thrust on full trim & bar is faster than a Cima (which is not trimmer equipped). The figures are there for all to see. I free flew the Atis 2 and like I said it was very nice. I've got no axe to grind here so nothing to get personal about. I had a mountain glider for a while - the lightweight version of the Mac Eden. Even the manual warned it was more fragile, needed more care laying out, avoiding line snags etc... My point was always that an ultralight canopy is NOT suitable for a PPG beginner who needs to do a lot of ground handling and is likely to be heavy handed on the controls. Why put them at risk on a wing designed for a different purpose and not even load tested / certified for PPG ? I wouldn't let a learner driver loose in my TVR Tuscan ! Anyway, the OP has narrowed his choice to a Thrust or an Atis, so lets leave it at that. http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=240765#240765 As for Dull, I dislike the way he spreads his lies, bullsh*t and libelous comments about other manufacturers, instructors and anyone who disagrees that a FT & K2 combo is the only safe way to fly PPG, and anything else is a suicidal death trap. This post, youtube and loads of other forums show that beginners see his stuff first and believe that they too can be indestructible in a FT / K2, and fly in any conditions - rain, snow, underwater, outer space etc If debates like this help even one beginner to avoid his BS and stay safe then it is worth it. PS - Flat Top or Farmer Dave is fine, but we might have a problem if you change to IMASUPER Dave !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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