alan_k Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 .... and fly in any conditions - rain, snow, underwater, outer space etc "If debates like this help even one beginner to avoid his BS and stay safe then it is worth it" I'm with you there all the way, Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecsstefan Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Thank you all for helping me out here to find a wing. As for Dell Schanze I have to admit that he is a good advertiser. Do not know if sky cima is the best glider but he sure does know how to make it look like it is in a beginner's eyes. If other brand had a person to advertise it's gliders like Dell then that company would have looked like the best ones available, just like in the carlsberg ad "probably the best beer in the world" In other words there is a new candidate on the market for me: the ozone addict 2 size M. I've read good things about it over the internet but do not know how it is compared to the thrust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hi Alecs Here is a link to a fairly usefull site for your bookmarks. http://www.para2000.org/wings/index.html If you click on compare wings you can look a 4 simultaneously. Hope you find this usefull. The Ozone Addict2 is a great glider if the specs are anything to go by, but if you look at the cert near the bottom of the chart, you'll notice it's a DHV2 or ENC and therefor not suitable to learn with. Try to get your first flights on a DHV 1 . Something fairly docile to handle with quick and automatic re-opening times. There are loads of possibilities. Best get with a trainer and he might have a safe wing for you to work with then you can channel your money into a better wing after you've had a few flights Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 As for Dell Schanze I have to admit that he is a good advertiser. Do not know if sky cima is the best glider but he sure does know how to make it look like it is in a beginner's eyes. You have just summed up why Dell is so dangerous, even though he is an otherwise competent pilot. According to Him, every other pilot & instructor is an "incompetent moron", and every other wing & motor is a "dangerous pile of crap" that will kill you on sight. Just ask yourself if the Cima is so amazing and "really the biggest advancement I've ever seen in the history of paragliders" (Dell) why has nobody else noticed this during its 6 year production run ? Why has it never won a competition or award ? Why do none of the world champions fly it (or almost anyone else other than Dell's disciples) ? Why is almost every PPG wing manufacturer and pilot switching to full or semi-reflex gliders for better performance & safety ? The answer is that Dell (in his own words) is "insane" and nobody with more than a single brain cell believes half of the lies and crap he spews on the internet - apart from beginners who see his "awesomeness" but don't yet understand why he is so wrong. An example of his nonsense is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PPGTRUTH/message/14511 True, an increase in wing loading can make a glider slightly more collapse resistant - but more prone to other problems such as spin or stall, plus any recovery is going to be much more violent and dynamic (beyond the certification) and could lead to failure of ultralight fabric and lines. Anyway it is good that you had the sense to ask questions first, and hopefully this will lead to an informed choice of equipment / training - with many years of safe and enjoyable flying ahead ! PS - I agree with Dave - an Ozone Addict is absolutely not suitable for a beginner to learn on. I know a comp pilot with several hundred hours experience (free flying) who loves its performance but still treats it with utmost respect, as it has almost bitten him badly a few times .... The Thrust and many other EN A or B rated wings would be ideal, but why not get a few lessons on school equipment first ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Oh, I forgot to mention I know of a brand new (never flown) Dudek Nemo Moto that might suit you perfecty and is a bargain at £1450. http://www.dudek.eu/en/paramotor-ppg/nemomoto.html You are beginning your paragliding career and have just decided to buy your first wing. It is quite an expense, so your craft should be as versatile and long-lasting as possible. You haven't yet discovered what kind of flying will be your favourite, so you would like to try everything: soaring the cliffs and diving off mountain peaks, flatland tow-launches and of course also paramotoring. You want to master thermalling skills and speed-bar usage on glides, but first and foremost you want to enjoy the mystical experience of flight without any disturbances from your wing. Of course there is still a lot to learn, so your wing should be forgiving of occasional faults, yet have enough performance to let you experience some real adventures. Sounds like fiction, doesn't it? Well, not any more. Such a wing exists, and it is called NemoMoto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecsstefan Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 Unfortunately I have to stick to the £1000 budget for the wing or I'll have to wait to raise some more money. For now only the wings I've mentioned before fit this budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecsstefan Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 There are two apco thrust available thanks to Nige. One is size S and other M. Which one to consider for a total weight (me and motor) of 105-110kg? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Medium would be your best choice at that weight. What is your 'naked' weight and did you include the wing, motor, fuel, clothing, boots, helmet, reserve etc in your calculation ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecsstefan Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Naked is 72kg + motor 20kg + fuel 10kg + clothes, etc max 110kg, id I add the wing wight I'll be at the edge of it's weight range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 You would be right at the top end (or just over) on a small. You are perfectly in the weight range for a medium (85-135kg, full paramotor equipment) and also perfect for free flying (80-100kg, including harness, wing, clothes etc.) Medium is the right choice ! You have to include the wing weight and everything that goes up in the air, so factor in a bit more than your calculations - to possibly include a reserve, radio, camera, altimeter, helmet, drink etc - all these small bits can add up to a few kg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alecsstefan Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 Decisions decisions, two icaro are now in sight, a Cyberg 4 size L (95-130kg) and a Force size L (100-125kg) that has DULV certification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Decisions decisions, two icaro are now in sight, a Cyberg 4 size L (95-130kg) and a Force size L (100-125kg) that has DULV certification. May the Force be with you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marko330 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 hello all i have just been reading you posts regards the sky k2 not been a suitable trainer/beginner wing. i was recently talking to a guy who had been training at a well known paramotor school not far from were i live and in conversation i asked the guy what wing he had, he told me that he had the k2 and was told it was one of the best wings on the market for the job in hand, so he went ahead and he bought the wing brand new from the said school to train and eventually fly with. so i guess my question to you all is this, is this then a case of sheer profit over health and safety or a simple difference of opinions having read all the comments on the k2 ? regards marco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 hello alli have just been reading you posts regards the sky k2 not been a suitable trainer/beginner wing. i was recently talking to a guy who had been training at a well known paramotor school not far from were i live and in conversation i asked the guy what wing he had, he told me that he had the k2 and was told it was one of the best wings on the market for the job in hand, so he went ahead and he bought the wing brand new from the said school to train and eventually fly with. so i guess my question to you all is this, is this then a case of sheer profit over health and safety or a simple difference of opinions having read all the comments on the k2 ? regards marco most probably!!!!!!!!! yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marko330 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 most probably what ? opinion or profit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 sorry dude, Profit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Most probably both .... Certainly everyone is entitled to their own opinion - especially if derived from their own independent, subjective testing and evaluation. The Sky Cima is not in itself a bad or dangerous free flying wing (even for a beginner) and the K2 is simply the ultralight version. Most people (including the manufacturer) would say it was not the "best tool for the job in hand" if the "job" was beginner paramotor training - simply because it is not designed for that job whereas plenty of other candidates are, and being "ultralight" will be less likely to withstand the rigours of either a newbie or long term paramotor use. The problem arises when such 'opinion' is based solely on the outpourings of one outspoken character (and proven liar), which directly contradicts the measured facts, experience and opinions of almost everyone else. An example of how this persons 'opinion' is viewed by his local community, and the US equivalent of the PMC, can be found here: http://www.ppgtruth.com/dellschanze/index.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Here is a link to the Sky paragliders web site http://en.sky-cz.com/products/gliders/cima-k2/ Whether they recommend the K2 for PPG or not, they are showing video of the wing with a motor. Just click on the video section. As far as whether it's a suitable wing for learning to fly on. It has very easy inflation / groundhandling and launch characteristics. Very fast re-opening (especially reassuring if you fly low) one of the safest wings in that respect. The material resists soaking up water. Very usefull if you fly on dewwy mornings. They're damned hard to inflate in light breeze when wet. I can think of plenty of other worse wings to learn with Cons....it's pretty expensive The durability is questionable as few have clocked up many hours PPG on one yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Certainly everyone is entitled to their own opinion - 'Nobody has even come close to being this clueless or classless'. This is from: http://www.footflyer.com/Misc/Powered_P ... associ.htm Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivefreeman Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Bloody hell hes stating you can jump out of a plane with a flat top. Its a shame he does not do it and then see what happens. Scary stuff, newbies watching hes u tube videos will think its the safest freaking paramotor on the planet and end up doing something silly. The man should be banned from selling with all hes lies , hes playing with peoples lives !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivefreeman Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I had this email as i was intrigued to find out more. From Sky Paragliders Dear Clive, we would like to inform you that the glider Cima K2 is suitable for paramotoring. If you are interested in powered flying with Cima K2, please inform your dealer while ordering (the glider for PPG is a little different - some lines are thicker and the risers are with trims). Best Regards,Lucie So you can use it, i did not ask them if you can jump out of planes with it though. Thanks Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Whether they recommend the K2 for PPG or not, they are showing video of the wing with a motor. Just click on the video section. Reading between the lines, they had to show some thanks to the one bloke who is flogging most of their K2's for them - but they still don't list PPG as one of it's recommended applications ! Very fast re-opening (especially reassuring if you fly low) one of the safest wings in that respect. The material resists soaking up water. Very usefull if you fly on dewwy mornings. No faster than the vast majority of 'A' rated wings and most 'B' rated too. Both my wings have water repellent fabric which just beads up and drops off. I can think of plenty of other worse wings to learn I can think of plenty of better ones (for PPG) ..... Your friend Dell has banned me from posting reply's to his videos and sent me a couple of pretty nasty messages. I objected to this one: because it is so false. I fly an Eden 4 and have performed collapses on it (as have the test pilots such as Alain Voller and many others). It is a superb modern wing with excellent safety characteristics which way outperforms the outdated K2. Any idiot can post lies and a falsified video on the internet, but he didn't have the guts to respond to my polite questions. He only allows stuff like "Woohoo Dell you sure do rock !" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 The man should be banned from selling with all hes lies , hes playing with peoples lives !! On a few of the sentences for his numerous court appearances the judges have noted his behaviour as being completely abnormal and sentenced him to counselling and psychiatric evaluation: "Third District Judge Royal Hansen .... ordered Schanze to take a "cognitive restructuring course," which assists people in learning how to detect errors in their thinking. Defense attorney Michael Bassett said Schanze already had taken that course at Sandy Counseling after being directed to by Sandy Municipal Court in connection with a separate misdemeanor paraglider incident." http://www.deseretnews.com/article/645191925/Schanze-gets-a-fine-probation.html "Draper Municipal Justice Judge Daniel Bertch imposed a 30-day jail sentence, but suspended that and put Schanze on probation for a year as part of a plea agreement. The judge also ordered Schanze to get an "intake assessment" at Sandy Counseling and undergo any counseling that might be recommended. Bertch repeatedly emphasized this was not a mental health evaluation." http://www.deseretnews.com/article/640186817/Super-Dell-enters-no-contest-plea.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I wouldn't waste to much mental energy worrying about someone that much Alan. Someone asked a question about ppg equipment. I hope I gave a reasonably balanced answer. Maybe a little biased as I've flown a Sky wing for 3 years and like it very much. As for Dell videos, I gave up posting those here ages ago. People didn't like it when I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Oh it doesn't worry me personally Dave, but as a long time outdoor pursuits coach I don't like to see people being misled and injured because some idot with a motormouth gives bad advice. Someone asked about a particular 'newbie wing' and now they know the truth from the lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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