Non-biased recommendation

[Dave24]

I've completed my PPG training and would like to buy my own equipment.

I have been advised to get some unbiased recommendations on the best wing and paramotor for me. I'm told that this can be difficult for many instructors and experts since they tend to be connected to (e.g. distributers for) one or two brands.

Can anyone offer independent recommendations on which wings and paramotors would be best for me? Important information is:

Level - beginner

Weight - 11 stone (71kg)

Paramotor needs:

1. Reliable (engine works well and doesn't cut out)

2. Electric start

3. Lightest possible

4. Fuel efficient (2-3 hours for cross country)

5. Strong cage (to prevent novice damage)

Wing needs:

1. Safety more important than performance

At the moment, cost is less of an issue, as long as the paramotor is reliable, light & efficient and the wing is stable and easy to use.

Thanks for any advice.

Dave

[Guest]

Hi Dave,

May I suggest some test flights may be a good idea?

Historically when asked, the answers you get here will be the wing that the poster owns so in effect, not independent.

I have Revos here is you are close enough, also close is the Dudek importer, (two birds one stone)

I can more than likely arrange for an Apco if I know when your coming down.

SW

[Dave24]

Nice idea SW.

Before I do that it would help if I could narrow the field down to a few of the better paramotors and wings - based on my own light weight and my need for reliability, light weight, electric start and fuel economy in a motor - and stability and ease of use in a wing - cost being less of an issue.

Any ideas from anyone would help.

[Farmer_Dave]

Dave

I'm about the only chap flying a Flat Top in the UK but if you'd like to know of my experiences with it, over the last 18 months (100 hours flown) drop me a line.

Dave

[surrey-dad]

Dave

I'm about the only chap flying a Flat Top in the UK but if you'd like to know of my experiences with it, over the last 18 months (100 hours flown) drop me a line.

Dave

Dave - I think a number of us would like to be added to the distribution list for your FT insights.

I certainly would please...

Andy

[Farmer_Dave]

Andy

I see the list is growing and someone said something about associated reviews to be written on each model, so I'll see if it's appropriate that I add my opinions there perhaps. It would be difficult to claim to be unbiased, not that I have any strong financial interest, UKPPG is the importer now. But I will give an accurate account of the problems aswell as the good points.

Perhaps we should grow a list of points to be raised that would be of mutual interest ?

eg. Thrust

Weight

Fuel burn (with which wing and at what loading)

Price

Frame strength

Hang point system (fixed or moving... pro and cons)

Prop guard (against body parts or toggle strikes)

Breakages or things that work loose (and how often)

I'm sure the list is endless, and the latter, if compiled, would be an excellent tool for pilots to refer to before and during preflight checks. We can all miss things. I've asked for this before cos I thought it'd be handy.

Let's see what happens

Dave

[Dave24]

Dave (Flat-Top),

Perhaps you could just let me know if you found your paramotor:

1. Was reliable

2. Had an electric start

3. Was light or heavy (compared to other people's motors)

4. Was fuel efficient (typically how many hours?)

5. Had a strong cage

It's yours and other people's opinions I'm interested in.

Dave

[Farmer_Dave]

Dave

The guy who brought my Flat Top over from the USA was your weight but are you a strong 11 stoner ? Not an issue because you can use a smaller, lighter engine. But I am just about to tell you the stats of the Simonini 200 mini 2 plus.

Click on the link below in my signature Dave

[fanman]

Dave, this question answers itself. You are looking for the holy grail exactly the same as everyone else. If this paramotor really existed (some will claim theirs does but it doesn't) then that would be the only type that was selling. They all have their individual problems (including the Flat Top although I think it is better than most). Not sure why you rate electric start so highly. It adds significantly to the weight (typically almost 3 kg unless you use lithium batteries but then can't charge in flight) and I have found that it is less reliable than pull start. Fuel efficiency is more important for reducing the amount of weight you need to lug around for take off. An inefficient lump that burns 7 litres an hour will weigh nearly 6kg more when fuelled for a 2 hour flight when compared to a machine that burns 3 litres an hour. So for that same flight if it had pull start instead of electric start it could weigh nearly 9kg (20lb) less!

[Dave24]

I see the electric start as a safety feature - I have had a motor cut out on me in flight (my fault) and had to land - no option of re-starting - could have been tricky. I also see it as a convenience thing - I have had the problem of starting a motor, putting the motor on; the motor stopping; having to take it off again, re-start; then put it on again - I was knackered before I even started. I see others get ready, press a button and off they go.

Everything else I need relates to weight and safety.

I understand that there are many different motors, but like any industry where there are many competitors (cars, bikes, TVs, Banks, etc), some will be good, some very good and others pretty much rubbish. When we have no ways of comparing them then - e.g. people don't say what they like and dislike about the one/s they've used, then the crap ones hang around and people pay over the odds for mediocre ones.

So I'm hoping that people will let us know what they think about their own paramotors and wings (and ones that they;ve used/seen).

Dave

[bignos]

my motor is crap (no backup) but my wing is superb! The dudek synthesis never overflies on pull-up and is fast for xc. i never use the trimmers and i still get 30mph!

when looking for my next motor i will check what its like for support (try contacting them for spares for a mythical motor that you have and see the response). then i will check and double check the design, for instance my under arm bars (i have fixed low hangpoint) just stick out and on a reverse launch are VERY dangerous, some motors put a curved bar here to stop this. I also have a mid hangpoint motor that i bought secondhand to 'try'. that helped with the reverse launch problem no end (the hang point id above the shoulder, on the harness) and is nice and stable for xc. the fixed low hangpoint is also quite stable, but i believe that the moving low hangpoint is a bit 'busy' and takes a bit of getting used to, i havent tried one of those yet. Check that there is plenty of room between the prop and the cage (just incase you bump it).

all motors have their faults, its just a case of knowing them, and checking before and after every flight!

Go to a local field and look at other peoples kit

[fanman]

I see the electric start as a safety feature - I have had a motor cut out on me in flight (my fault) and had to land - no option of re-starting - could have been tricky. I also see it as a convenience thing - I have had the problem of starting a motor, putting the motor on; the motor stopping; having to take it off again, re-start; then put it on again - I was knackered before I even started. I see others get ready, press a button and off they go...

I flew yesterday. Didn't pull start my engine until stood up all clipped in and ready to go, exactly the same as when I had electric start machines except I don't have a battery to go flat or lug around. Didn't have to start on one leg or do anything tricky as my set up is good. I shut my engine down three times in flight and each time I restarted easily from in my seat and climbed away. I consider the weight reduction to be the safety factor I am after and there is no loss of convenience.

[Dave24]

Thanks Bignos,

This is exactly what I need to hear, real-world advice, what's good and what's crap, plus things to watch out for.

Good idea about going to a field/fly-in and seeing what people have got.

Dave

[Dave24]

I flew yesterday. Didn't pull start my engine until stood up all clipped in and ready to go, exactly the same as when I had electric start machines except I don't have a battery to go flat or lug around. Didn't have to start on one leg or do anything tricky as my set up is good. I shut my engine down three times in flight and each time I restarted easily from in my seat and climbed away. I consider the weight reduction to be the safety factor I am after and there is no loss of convenience.

Fanman,

I didn't know you could do this (start from ready position and re-start in the air). Is this normal for your type of motor or have you done something to yours to make it easier to start from your seat?

Dave

[fanman]

At 71kg you can fly anything. I would recommend you look at PAP Top80, HE R80 or Miniplane Top80. You would even be fine on a RAD or many, many others. All of these can do what I do with ease as standard (except the PAP uses footstart when it is on your back). The Flat Tops, Parajets, larger PAPs and the like are 50% heavier than the Miniplane and the RAD!!!

[dantheman]

I pullstart my H&E when it's on my back, never bothered doing it in the air as I don't use thermals however I'm sure it's easy enough, pullstart is located over the right shoulder. Have seen too many people miss flights with electric starts that have gone flat saying that I would like a Parajet and I'd make sure it was plugged into a 12v battery saver to keep it tip top, I don't think you notice the extra weight of the starter & battery due to the fact that the harness is so comfy.

[learner_driver]

the top 80 wins often, the world record for fuel economy flying, sometimes beating a 4 stroke. is widely considered one of the best engines also is very light.

I would by one myself if they came as a pair me 127kg

good luck

[Guest]

I pullstart my H&E when it's on my back, never bothered doing it in the air as I don't use thermals however I'm sure it's easy enough, pullstart is located over the right shoulder.

Dude, you are missing out on not just thermals, but the sound of just the air rushing past your lines and the general 'feeling' that comes at cloud base with no engine noise. Also Birds of prey will come right up to your wing if you stay quiet for long enough.

Also,

You should practice it at least a few times just so that you 'know' you can do it. Rather than thinking it will be easy. ( I think you may find it tricky and maybe even a little daunting the first few times.)

SW

[fanman]

The HE R80 would be a very suitable machine for Dave. Unfortunately not quite as light as it should be but still lighter than most of the competition. The cage is steel which makes it easier to bend back than most after minor dings. The motor is effectively a copy of the Top80 but possibly even better than the Top80. A few people have had gearbox issues but they are well supported and easy to maintain. The economy is outstanding and they are an unbelievably easy over the shoulder 2 finger pull start and one of the quietest motors out there. It is quieter than a Bailey 4 stroke. Andrew Shepherd has his one advertised on ParamotorsUK for £1800. I haven't flown his one but have regularly operated with him and flown alongside it and always been impressed. Gordon Dunn (sometimes on here) has an HE R80 as well as an R120 so he can also advise. PAP Top80 is similar but a couple of kilos lighter. Always go for the largest cage size you can manage.

[Guest]

Always go for the largest cage size you can manage.

Whys that then?

I have had compact (small frame) for 3 years or so now, and would never go back to a large cage. (well never say never) but it would have to be VERY special.

Unless you are ultra bothered about fuel I can see no other benefit to a large cage..

Compact and Fusion gives me a couple hours on a normal XC which is more than enough for most people.

SW

[Farmer_Dave]

Level - beginner

Weight - 11 stone (71kg)

Paramotor needs:

1. Reliable (engine works well and doesn't cut out)

2. Electric start

3. Lightest possible

4. Fuel efficient (2-3 hours for cross country)

5. Strong cage (to prevent novice damage)

Wing needs:

1. Safety more important than performance

At the moment, cost is less of an issue, as long as the paramotor is reliable, light & efficient and the wing is stable and easy to use.

Thanks for any advice.

Dave

Just a reminder of Dave's requirements

Looks like it would have to be the Flat-Top frame. Not sure which engine he'd want though. I think he should fly a few first. Maybe the Radne 120 or the mini 4 Simmo.

As for the wing Cima K2 perhaps. I'd like to try one first to be sure though. I've no doubt it would be easy launch and safe to fly if not the fastest. My Atis has been a joy.

BTW Is there anyone out there about to give up because they broke loads of props and never got off the ground ? Have a go with mine ! Restore your faith in the sport. LOL

Dave

Edited November 4, 2009 by Guest

[Guest]

I was not suggesting a compact filled his tick list,

I was just responding to one comment about the cage size.

Also, it is true to say that we all crave endurance in the air, 2-3 hours + and so on...

But the fact is,

Of all of the people I know, there are only a handfull who actualy stay in the air for anything close to that amount of time. I belive that if you are a keen XC pilot, and want to stay in the air for hours, the cage comment is correct.

In a round about kind of way, I am saying are you one of those people?

Whats your longest flight to date?

Do you want to potter around locally, or cover distance?

The 'Type' of pilot very much should be considered when giving advice like this.

SW

[fanman]

It's a personal thing, admittedly, but larger props can generate similar thrust at lower fuel burns. Personally I find this good not because it means I can fly forever on a tank (although I can) but I can take off carrying less fuel for the planned flight time allowing even more difference in the weight carried on my back compared to the heavies. Transportation needs to be considered as well though and that is where big diameter cages lose out.

However, small prop on typical machine can easily burn 7 litres an hour when the same pilot can achieve 3 litres an hour on large propped small engine. For a 1 hour flight (that's a typical flight) that's 4 litres (3kg) less on your back for take off. Some of the machines I already mentioned are already 10kg lighter than typical machines so therefore if they are fuelled for 1 hour of flight the lighter machine should be 13kg (nearly 30lb's!!!) lighter.

[outkast]

I have both pull start and electric on my solo powered PAP, however I have never been able to pull start it as i dont have the strength of a gorrila, I made up a lead to jump start my motor in the event of a flat battery, I have also bought a inverter so I can plug the battery charger into my cigarette lighter in my van and charge the battery on the way to the flying site.

as for cage size, not having long arms means I have found both Simons compact wich I have flown and my PAP with an 1100 cage to be very manageble on my back.

I switched the stock tllitson carb for a walbro and since getting it set up right am getting very good fuel economy.

as for wieght, I geuss fully fueled my motor must come in close to 33kg,its about to get a bit heavier as I have just bought a reserve and will be fitting it soon, this is not really a problem for me now as I have gained experience I have had very few, if any failed launches.

Dave

[Farmer_Dave]

Some motors start well with pull start. Decompressors help too. Practice in a hang test I guess. I love my leccy start with it's 465 gramme battery though.

Go DAVE. Hardly any failed launches is phenominal. I've had sh*t loads of em. Good for you. Let's meet for a fly so i can take some tips. No I mean it. The day you stop learning, in this game, is a bad day !

Dave G