Farmer_Dave Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Just wondered if anyone had weighed their H&E 120. I am waiting for Patrick, who has just arrived, to pick up his and I popped it on the scales in the barn. Tested scales. Take off 3 kilos for the reserve and 2 kgs for the 2 litres of fuel = 5 kgs total off of 34 kgs combined giving a dry weight of 29 kilos. More than I thought ! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I think that a lot of manufacturers tend to be a bit, how shall we say, optimistic, in their weight assessment. Sometimes missing out stuff like harness or cage even, either that, or never actually placing them on a real set of scales. I have no proof of this BTW, other than finding out that my Adventure F3, fully kitted, weighed almost exactly the same as my Bailey 175. The Bailey of course is often dismissed out of hand by potential purchasers for being too heavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 I had a bailey on my back at Lambourn last year Phil, and it actually felt quite comfy. But Patrick just confirmed the weight of his 120 H@E as being 40 kgs with 10 litres of fuel and a 3 kg reserve which comes to the same 29 kgs I worked it out to be, when dry. No battery, no electric start, no 200cc Simmo and it's only half a kilo shy of my unit with about 25 kilos less thrust. I'm just a bit surprised. I thought it was a 26 kg machine. I also thought I was down to 95 kgs but old porkers is still 100. More cycling miles required ! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I also thought I was down to 95 kgs but old porkers is still 100. More cycling miles required ! Dave hard men dont diet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 http://www.ojovolador.com/ppg/tables/heavy.html HE R120 - 24.8kg without harness, 28.8kg with harness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 I have just weighed my Fresh Breeze and plus harness it's 30kg dry. The harness is separate with the earlier Fresh Breeze motors which I guess makes the quoted weights lower as they probably don't include the harness. Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted September 6, 2009 Author Share Posted September 6, 2009 I've been had then. What's the point of weighing a machine without the harness when you cant fly without one. I smell a bit of trickery. People have told me they wouldn't be able to fly a simmo 200 because of the weight so I've been recommending the PaP Ross 125 and H&E 120 as a lighter unit, but it's actually far harder to launch. Doh ! Yes I see the Ross is lighter and thrustier but I've seen both units promoted as sub 25 kgs. Solo 210 Walkerjet Superhawk in my shed IS 25 kgs approx. And people steer past because they think it's heavy. That's WITH the harness. Oh and the silencer, and the cylinder head and the carb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baileyaviation Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 The subject of machine weight is quite an interesting one, we go to great lengths to make our 4-stroke machines as light as they can possibly be, bearing in mind the vastly greater parts count and complication. Some years ago we took a set of scales to the Splash show at the NEC and weighed all of the machines we could find from all of the trade stands. (some rather reluctantly) The results were compiled and made very interesting reading indeed. I would welcome a similar ‘weigh in’ at this years show if some one would care to organise it. PB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 PAP 1400 Ros 125 is 29kg with no fuel and no reserve attached but otherwise ready to go. PAP 1400 Top80 is 25kg in same config. With the exception of Bailey who quote real weights just about every other manufacturer quotes useless bullsh1t. Simo's are not heavy motors when put in the right chassis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted September 6, 2009 Author Share Posted September 6, 2009 Jolly good idea Paul. Be nice to test thrust, noise and fuel burn too. Know it's been done before, but it's only ever 4 different motors on a day. We should herd the lot together somewhere and get it done. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 I have a set of accurate Digital scales. I will bring it to the flyin so we can compile a list of everyones motors weight. Good idea. How much do the Bailey's weigh anyway? SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatboy Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 My Airfer PXP, 99cm prop, stainless cage, Black Devil electric start engine, with 9 litres fuel & Independence Evo reserve in a Gin front mounted, weighs in at 41 kgs. I on the other hand weigh in at 108kg kitted ready to fly! AUW of 156kg inc. wing. Combination close to the top end weight of my wing a Power Play Sting 160. But still managed 15 out of 16 forward launches this year. What AUW are any other big blokes & what wing do you fly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted September 6, 2009 Author Share Posted September 6, 2009 I have a set of accurate Digital scales. I will bring it to the flyin so we can compile a list of everyones motors weight. Good idea. How much do the Bailey's weigh anyway? SW Not much more than the rest by the sound of things Simon ! With a lower fuel weight needed for the same flying time, well, that'd be about the same as the rest then. Incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Yes, I am sure that is the case, but I would still like to know what scales say when you put one on them. not a biggy of course, I am asking so that if the baily being heavy is a myth then we will all know that it is. As odd as it is, I don't consider the weight of the motor that much when looking, I am more interested in having decent thrust for my weight, and a comfy flight. Since the School started getting busy I find that my flight time has dropped and where before I was flying 2 hour + flights every time I took off, now its more like 20-60 mins! so fuel is not that vital to me either. I just want to be in the air, and comfy when up there. extra 3-4 kg? I just don't care about that. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 How much do the Bailey's weigh anyway? Mk2 with alloy cage and larger of the 2 frame sizes with no fuel or reserve but including harness - 34kg actual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 My Airfer PXP, 99cm prop, stainless cage, Black Devil electric start engine, with 9 litres fuel & Independence Evo reserve in a Gin front mounted, weighs in at 41 kgs. 9 litres of fuel weighs 6.5kg and your reserve probably comes in at 3.5kg when mounted in its container. That means your paramotor weighs 31kg which is quite heavy bearing in mind that presumably because you are only turning a 99cm prop you are probably running a small sized cage. The BD is a thirsty engine so I dread to think what your fuel burn is being that heavy on that size wing on that size prop on that motor! Also Airfer make paramotors and so do PXP so surely it is one or the other, not both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantheman Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 http://www.ojovolador.com/ppg/tables/heavy.htmlHE R120 - 24.8kg without harness, 28.8kg with harness. Bit late I guess but I stuck my large tank HE R120 (125 cm prop) on the scales and it was 29kg dry, exactly what Dave said. The H&E website quotes the 99cm prop (small cage) R120 at 25kg, then the 115cm at 26kg and the 125cm at 27kg, don't know where the extra couple of kg's came from Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 The H&E website quotes the 99cm prop (small cage) R120 at 25kg, then the 115cm at 26kg and the 125cm at 27kg, don't know where the extra couple of kg's came from Less gravity in Spain doncha know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 Yes, I am sure that is the case, but I would still like to know what scales say when you put one on them. not a biggy of course, I am asking so that if the baily being heavy is a myth then we will all know that it is. As odd as it is, I don't consider the weight of the motor that much when looking, I am more interested in having decent thrust for my weight, and a comfy flight. Since the School started getting busy I find that my flight time has dropped and where before I was flying 2 hour + flights every time I took off, now its more like 20-60 mins! so fuel is not that vital to me either. I just want to be in the air, and comfy when up there. extra 3-4 kg? I just don't care about that. SW I think everyone has different priorities Simon. I like a long autonomy, just incase I dont want to come down, or the wind comes round and your return is unexpectedly into wind. Obviously, lighter motors with lots more thrust would be easiest to get airborn, so the figures (accurate ones) would be handy to help people to chose what they want. My arguement is not about choices that people make. It's about misleading information. I've spent 18 months believing that other units are 4 to 5 kgs lighter than mine when infact they are only 1/2 to one kilo lighter. If I now weigh my Flat Top with the 2 blade prop, and find it's 500 grammes lighter, I can then claim it weighs the same as the H & E 120. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 The mix of power and autonomy is absolutely vital in my book for exactly the reasons Dave mentions above. It's mostly the lardies who can't fly a lightweight machine that tell you weight doesn't matter! I am starting to think that the Flat Top is actually one of the best options out there at the moment. What is the true weight of yours with no reserve and no fuel but including harness Dave? Can you get one that's pull start only? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 Fanman. I weighed it at 29.5 kg with the 3 blade prop, which is exactly what it's claimed to be. It's wearing a 2 blader now so probably a squeak over 29 kg same as the H & E 120 that I weighed on the same scales tother day. Scales tested by HM Weights and Measures. You wont save weight with a pull start and they aren't supplied with the 200 FT. Leccy start is safer IMO. I was tugging at the 120 , on the floor, and didn't like it much. Better to stickit on yer back and hit the button. Look at "What a cranker" on youtube Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 fraid I'm a pullstart man thru and thru. took the leccy start, battery, voltage regulator, starter relay and wiring off a motor of mine recently and saved 2.5kg. If it don't pullstart in the first couple of pulls then somethings wrong with the set up. Electric start allows you to get away with an imperfect set up which would be better off getting sorted. If the pull start causes improper balance then that needs sorting too. FB do the Simo with pull start only so I presume its just FT that dont supply it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 Hi Fanman Like I said. We all have our preferences. FT dont supply pullstart on the simo for another reason. The motor is as tight to your back as poss and that dont leave room for it. Also, the FB pull unit breaks eventually, not that leccy will never let you down. I wont pretend anything's perfect. It is also quicker to get an engine started with leccy if a landing looks bad and a new approach might be neccessary. No relays on FT and battery weighs 465 grammes. I guess that's how it gets below 30 kg. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helimed01 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 http://www.ojovolador.com/ppg/tables/heavy.htmlHE R120 - 24.8kg without harness, 28.8kg with harness. Bit late I guess but I stuck my large tank HE R120 (125 cm prop) on the scales and it was 29kg dry, exactly what Dave said. The H&E website quotes the 99cm prop (small cage) R120 at 25kg, then the 115cm at 26kg and the 125cm at 27kg, don't know where the extra couple of kg's came from Just weighed my H&E R120 with harness. 17ltr tank completely empty, no reserve, pull start and no prop. It was 28kg which seems same as above. (I am 99kg in socks and T shirt this morning) My main motor is now Fresh Breeze Sportix. Electric start / ignition. Also metamorphosi conar 20 reserve which weighs a massive 4.5 to 5 kg approx. I also have a 20 ltr fuel tank fitted. My flight deck and camara weigh 3kg and I normally carry a radio. I don't know the all up weight but when fully kitted for a long flight its very heavy, however even though its heavy, take off in nil wind with FB is much easier than the lighter H&E because of the power. I would like to try the new Bailey for power. As for pull start Vs electric. My H&E could pull start in the air but only if it hadn't been stopped for longer than a minute or so, when cold it needs priming again. With the leccy start FB I feel confident to switch off on final glide to landing, which is always nice, and restart on final approach incase I get it wrong, then switch off again prior to landing. Keeps the local horse riders happy too. Even when cold / first start of the day the FB starts easily, great. Regards. whitters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyfreefly Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Because of a mistake by the **** manafacturer***** with my first paramotor it caught fire due to the electrics twice !!! since then Ive been a pull start man .......no battery ,no charging, no starter motor. No extra weight..... My perfect Paramotor would be ......Pap chassis......Bailey kick start......with a clutch drive prop.... ...If anybody makes one or puts one together for me youve got a sale.......and no doubt you will sell a lot more as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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