Is Ozone Speedster full reflex?

[dede2008]

Just a tech question: does anyone know if the Speedster has a full reflex profile in the like of Dudek and Paramania's, or is it somehow different?

I know that on Ozone website they claim its a full reflex wing, but I was wondering what their "reflex" profile means as they used in the past the "reflex" concept for the Viper 2 which is to my understanding a sort of hybrid profile.

For example if tested with the classical ground handling full reflex test, will the Speedster behaves like the wing on this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkv9e6ZYv24

My main doubts are the use of speed and breakes troughout the entire trim range, something that makes me think its more like the Viper than a tipical full reflex?

Any thoughts/comments?

Anyone tried to test their Speedster in this way?

[dede2008]

mmm 57 souls reading and no comments?

Are all you Speedster owners just fly the wing without any further doubts that when you release the trims it is actually going to be almost as un-collapsable as any reflex should be?

Or there are only so few Speedster owners/who tried the wing out there?

[s1buell_wl]

Did you read my post under Nuc / Speedster?

I was hinting at the same thing. Even Paramotor mag asked Ozone directly. I posted the Ozone reply (well part of it. I can post the whole reply if you want

Some of the test even when paramotor mag tested the no trim, full speed bar then pull the brakes the tips did not deflate..... this indicates semi re-flex

Either Ozone has preformed magic or the speedster is semi reflex... maybe 3/4 reflex! hehehehe

Either way it has retained lots of free flight wing characteristics with some extra speed

[morgy]

Hi

I have tested my Speedster just like your video and it does handle the same and does not fold or tuck... As for FULL reflex or semi...My understanding is that the revo and the fusion were semi reflex. NOT full... "I could be wrong" IE not reflex with trimmer's in Dudeks have full reflex thus having reflex when the trimmers are in.

[s1buell_wl]

Hi

I have tested my Speedster just like your video and it does handle the same and does not fold or tuck... As for FULL reflex or semi...My understanding is that the revo and the fusion were semi reflex. NOT full... "I could be wrong" IE not reflex with trimmer's in Dudeks have full reflex thus having reflex when the trimmers are in.

It's a full reflex test (and not recommended buy any company)

Let the trim fully out so you in max reflex and with full speed bar

then apply brake you will see/feel the wing tips start to deflate

however in the paramotor mag teat the wing tip of the speedster did not deflate. that's why paramotor mag testers then asked Ozone what is the percentage of reflex in the speedster

their reply was:

Reflex is a geometric characteristic of the profile and can not be expressed as a percentage.

The amount of reflex in an wing can not be rated as a percentage as there's no

reference. At full speeds do not use the normal brakes use wing tip steering

They are just stating it a reflex profile

[dede2008]

Hi

I have tested my Speedster just like your video and it does handle the same and does not fold or tuck... As for FULL reflex or semi...My understanding is that the revo and the fusion were semi reflex. NOT full... "I could be wrong" IE not reflex with trimmer's in Dudeks have full reflex thus having reflex when the trimmers are in.

It's a full reflex test (and not recommended buy any company)

Let the trim fully out so you in max reflex and with full speed bar

then apply brake you will see/feel the wing tips start to deflate

however in the paramotor mag teat the wing tip of the speedster did not deflate. thats why paramotor mag testers then asked Ozone what is the percentage of reflex in the speedster

their reply was:

Hi,

not the kind of test I would be happy to do on a full reflex wing myself... I believe the famous paramania GT (?) heavy collapse shown on youtube a while ago was generated this way?

Full trim full bar and breaks applied.... or was it maybe trim in and speed bar applied?

I would be happy enough to see the Speedbar behaving like the video I posted above, on the ground full trim out and holding the wing by the speed lines and see if you are able to collapse or tuck or if it just go past you all in one piece. That is a good sign of so called full reflex prpfile to me, morgy you said you tested it this way, I suppose you were trim out and holding by the speed lines right?

As for Dudek and Paramania's, my understanding is that they are both full reflex wings but only with trim out while both will be in non reflex configuration when trimmed in.

The Speedster is something that elude my understanding on paper as it doesnt seem to have the limitation of a full reflex profile (use of tip steering in place of breaks while trimmed out and no use of speedbar while trimmed in), yet Ozone claims it is a full reflex profile.

[s1buell_wl]

This I totally dissagree with

Steve & Pete B Non-Reflex Demo

You can not do this with any glider! you can not have the risers more then 42" apart this depends on the glider of course but 3-4 feet......

His other test (full reflex) pulling down on the front riser set I'm not sure either this means much.... correct me if I`m wrong. I will say I know the reflex profile has a tenancy to float backwards unlike the free flying wings.

I want to try this test with my nuc.... and soon after with the speedster when it comes

I think what concerns me more is when the reflex does collapses the time it takes to re-inflate... the intermediate free flying wings "snap" back really fast. Will a full reflex wing do the same?

The one video of the speedster doing wing-overs and kept going them like nothing happen even while occurring a 40% collapse was impressive. I would like to know what the trim was. anyone know?

[s1buell_wl]

You can see the strange way the reflex comes back to life at the end here on the frontal

But man the new reflex wings are looking so stable and at full trim as you can see in the video he cant collapse it.

i wonder if the speedster becomes this "solid" in full trim

[morgy]

I have as yet not had a collapse on my speedster with trimmers in or out. Even tho i do fly in some in very active air and sea breeze front's. BUT i do know some one who has had a collapse on a Speedster 40% or more. This is a quote form that pilot.... I shit myself as She dropped like a stone but stayed level and never turned of course and was out in a second.....

Any collapse you get on a reflex Glider IS going to be more dynamic BUT the chance's of getting one in Most Normal Pilots fly condition's is so small...

[outkast]

I think when manufacturers speak of full reflex, they mean the wing is fully reflexed with the trimmers out, wich I think may be a bit misleading as when the trimmers are in there is no reflex.

from what I have read some wings like the dudeks still have some reflex right through the trim range, maybe these wings should be called "true fully reflexed wings" and anything else should be called something like part reflexed or reflex adjustable, as this would be more discriptive of the wing itself.

just a thought

[dede2008]

Well it does come handy to have two options (reflex and non reflex) in the same wing when flying so one can choose the type of flying, handling and speed he/she likes.

The reflex option I see it like a way to move faster around if I want to travel some distance or be more safe in case conditions suddently change, it should not be in my opinion a way to get airborne in stronger conditions just because you can, thats always calling for troubles.As someone pointed out, collapses in paramotor are really very rare and normally associated with throwing yourself into a bad situation, but when it does happen I'd like to know that in releasing the trimmers out I get a rock solid wing, the so called reflex profile is associated with.

So the problem I think is not whether we should call true reflex a wing that has still some reflex in slow trim (dudeks someone says, I havent check that) but whether the wing has it at all (normally when trimmed out) or its a semi-reflex/hybrid profile like the Ozone Viper 2 for example.

Maybe the real question we should ask Ozone (or in fact, test ourselves) is, ok, forget about this full-true-reflex definition, everyone seem to have his own opinion to what's reflex and what amount of it to be called full/true etc:

Is the wing almost-uncollapsable/rock solid at full trim out or is it not? Because thats in the end what we look for in a reflex wing.

In my opinion the ground handling trimmers-out collapse test and the virtual impossibility to generate a front collapse as shown on the nucleon video above are two good signs of that.

So when you have some time Morgy, would you mind get your camera on and show this ground handling test with your speedster so we can see how it behaves? (I wouldnt dare to ask you to do the second test, becoming a test pilot on air is not for everyone)

Thaat would be great for a start

[morgy]

If your flying a material wing you will never be 100% collapse resistant even of it is full reflex, semi or any other type. I have flown through some rough conditions with the Wings leading edge on the horizon one second then behind my head another. I never took a collapse I was on full trims out on my fusion. Unless you like flying in Thermic conditions with the possibility of sea convergence don't worry about it. Do you honestly think ozone are going to lie to the public about there wings just to make a sale!!

[s1buell_wl]

Alan posted this

look at 5.25 with trims in the wing had a collapse (really big wing over and did not have enough brake on high side) High side lost pressure and collapsed just like free flying wing would

Outkast you might be on to something its for sure a reflex wing but I know with the Nuc when my trims are at "0" I think the wing is in a Hybrd mode there seems to still be reflex. The brakes are still hard to pull.

I'm looking forward to getting the speedster to do some tests.

I want to know how they managed to use the speed bar through the entire trim range. Have any of you guys watch the risers and see how the wing applies the speed bar? Is it just pulling the front down to change the angle of attack like the Nuc or is it applying through the entire wing. There is more detail about this in 2011 paramotor mag.

[morgy]

I can post you up a photo if you like.

The speed bar pulls down the front 3 risers A's B's and C's. NOT just the A's

[dede2008]

If your flying a material wing you will never be 100% collapse resistant even of it is full reflex, semi or any other type. I have flown through some rough conditions with the Wings leading edge on the horizon one second then behind my head another. I never took a collapse I was on full trims out on my fusion. Unless you like flying in Thermic conditions with the possibility of sea convergence don't worry about it. Do you honestly think ozone are going to lie to the public about there wings just to make a sale!!

I never said 100% collapse resistant, no wing will ever have that its in fact a good thing, where other flying vehicles will break their wings, our just collapse, its meant to be that way.

I just want to know how Ozone reflex compares to the traditional reflex profile that was used so far by other brands, and whether it is as collapse resistant as theirs at full trim out. Asking too much?

I don't believe Ozone is lying, but I like to question things I don't understand and don't like to take everything for granted and just go buy the wing because everybody says its good, fast, has great handling and its safe.

[morgy]

Is the Speedster safe? Yes

Is it as safe as a Nucleon? Yes BUT It is not as stable IMO. Again BUT it's more stable than a Fusion ( when i say stable i mean moving around above your head) The Speedster does need to be flown (with trimmers in) IE like a PG wing

I personally think it has less reflex than the Nucleon But how this would be measured i couldn't tell you.

I don't believe Ozone is lying, but I like to question things I don't understand and don't like to take everything for granted and just go buy the wing because everybody says its good, fast, has great handling and its safe.

Well the only way for you to be sure is to have a demo and fly it yourself.... Or fly a nucleon, speedster and a fusion all on the same day.. If people are saying it is god there must be a reason

If you want a rock solid wing that will not move around that much... I would go for the Nucleon. But i know a few X nucleon owner's what are they flying now???? Speedster's

There fast, great at thermaling you can spiral on the tip steering the brake pressure is nice not too heavy.

If your local to us we can get you a demo on both Nucleon and speedster to see what you think....

[s1buell_wl]

What do you mean by this?

The Speedster does need to be flown (with trimmers in) IE like a PG wing

[lukebanks1]

I have owned a Fusion , Nucleon and now a Speedster.

The Speedster is in my opinion less "reflexed" in my conventional understanding of a reflex profile than the Nucleon, as evidenced by the force required to pull the trimmers back in - the Cs and Ds remain more loaded than on the Nucleon.

What this does to the centre of pressure I don't know but Ozone have clearly approached their reflex profile differently to Dudek.

We all want to know can we fly the Speedster hands off like the Nucleon when it gets funky. My experience is yes but be prepared for the wing to move around a lot above your head - really feels like you're surfing the air. This for me is infinitely preferable to the lateral oscillation the Fusion was prone to (a result of the wings excellent roll characteristics) but not as confidence inspiring as the Nucleon.

I fly with Mark and Seymore regularly in thermic conditions and at the moment I feel more comfortable actively flying the wing with trimmers around take off - full slow, then trimmers out to dash to the next thermal.

Take Friday for example - 13:00 - 15:00 (to quote Mark "booming conditions") I flew at take off - full slow. After stopping for lunch at Seymore's friend's place I flew the hour home full fast (still the odd thermal but not everywhere!) and enjoyed chucking it around on the wingtip sterring.

I'm the one Mark refers to who had a collaspe on the Speedster. I was trims out, no bar and I think I hit some sea breeze convergence. What struck me was that the wing did not turn at all. I don't know how much deflated really, only that I had a definite sensation of falling a second and then bang completle re- inflation before I could reach the brakes. Anecdotally I have flown in very rough conditions on the Nucleon and never had something similar happen - but if the Nucleon did go I think it would be much more dynamic than above.

I have found the Speedster to be a dream to fly. I nearly always reverse launch often despite "nil wind" conditions when others use a forward. I set trimmers an inch past take off and up she comes will constant A pressure and a little trot backwards, the wing is overhead and I'm off.

The glide is fantastic even on full fast. I always land trims fully out. This is especially good on nil wind days or if I'm not 100% of the wind direction on the deck - loads of airspeed to convert to lift and precise flare control through firm brake pressure for landing.

My advice - speak to as many people as you can and ask them how they fly their wings and why. Then demo one.

[dede2008]

Thanks Morgy and Lukebanks for your comments, much appreciated.

I have flown the Nucleon and will be soon demo a Speedster, so I'm about to experience the difference first hand.

The Nucleon is a great wing, but I found it doesnt suite my type of flying. For once, the recommended size is much more than what I'm used with for my weight. I've always flown 26's and going for a 29 was too much for my taste. Maybe because of that I felt it was a bit of a truck in terms of handling.

Also coming from the paragliding world, I never got along with this hands off flying in full trims out. It really is a change of a deep settled habit of active flying especially when conditions get funky. So the idea of still being able to use the breaks in full trims out with no side effects is a welcome one.

And I'm still paragliding quite often, so I would not have to switch my brain every time like: ok I'm paramotor flying now and I've set full trim out, DONT touch the breaks! Not so easy when you have the instinct of active flying the wing.

Lukebank, nice to know the wing is so easy to reverse launch in nil wind! When you say nil wind you really mean nil? Any special technique to reverse in such condition? Almost hard to believe if I don't see/try myself. Seems really a dream to launch.

Morgy sometimes I wish I was local there because there is no such a nice online and offline community of paramotors here in Italy, I'm flying alone most of the time. I have paramotor buddies but not so many BUT we have nice weather, unflyable days are only a few in a year. So why don't you all move here?

[morgy]

What do you mean by this?

The Speedster does need to be flown (with trimmers in) IE like a PG wing

The speedster has to be flown like a pG wing means you have to fly it actively when the condition get rough with trimmers in.... It is very much like a PG wing in it's thermaling flying characteristics. If you dont fly in rough air you have nothing to worry about as it is like every other PPG wing out there... SAFE..

There is no special technique to launching in very light conditions the wind does it all for you. I could count on one hand how many failed launches i have had this year 3 of them were just before dark when the wind was so light and had switched direction.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid= ... =1&theater

Well put Luke Better than my dyslexic ramblings...

Dede when you do demo the Speedster let us know what you think!!!!

Regards

Mark

[outkast]

Fame at last Morgy, I see you got a couple of nice pics in paramotor mag

[morgy]

Not exactly fame...

But yes a couple in there... I think the fact that the record was broken 3 times in a month after two years helped....

One Photos is not of me It's luke foot dragging.... I took it and sent it in.... i think they got it mixed up with the record photos i had sent in..

Still Its nice to be noticed and good publicity for sussex Paramotors,Bailey and the Speedster.

[s1buell_wl]

What do you mean by this?

The Speedster does need to be flown (with trimmers in) IE like a PG wing

The speedster has to be flown like a pG wing means you have to fly it actively when the condition get rough with trimmers in.... It is very much like a PG wing in it's thermaling flying characteristics. If you dont fly in rough air you have nothing to worry about as it is like every other PPG wing out there... SAFE..

Mark

That's what I thought, just wanted to be sure.

[s1buell_wl]

Luke, thanks for the note (nice read)

Well I just got my tracking number so the 26m Speedster is on the way. The first thing I will do is take it to the mountains for some free flight. I was there this weekend and wish I had it.

I think I'm going to keep the Nuc 29m and the Speed 26m. I think they will make a nice quiver.

I have a little park (I like to call it a park) beside the sea and it has a bunch of dead trees that make a great slalom course. So I'll keep the 26m for the mountains and the park. The Nuc for falling a sleep doing XC down the coast

I know a few of you guys have the speed, how is it in the thermals for free flight. Anyone try? I seen some vids on free flgiht but looked like ridge soaring mostly.

T

[s1buell_wl]

I was right they re-designed the risers

All new trim system for speed increase with no deformation and no reflex loss: Not only is the profile entirely new – the Speedster’s riser system has been totally redesigned to maximise speed and efficiency in paramotor flight. The amount of reflex in the Speedster’s profile is calculated to react at any speed, and any angle of attack. This new trimmer system works by changing the wing’s angle of attack without any deformation in the sail. When other PPG wings are trimmed out, the trailing edge is deformed. Other designers claim this is “increasing the reflex”. However, the real result is not a real speed increase, only a marginal increase in the reflex with bad deformation of the sail. This translates into poor sink rates (needing more power/fuel) and general inefficiency.

Our trimmer system (which works exactly like the accelerator) increases speed with only a small input, while maintaining high collapse resistance and very good performance.