Wing for the HEAVIER pilot

[bholleran]

Hi all,

I am looking for some collective wisdom here.

Me: 125

clothes, helmet, flight panel 5

motor 30

fuel 10

wing 8

I am not carrying a reserve but I would like to: so another 5

So total weight will vary from 168 to 183 I guess allowing for the fuel to be used and if I have a reserve attached etc.

Out of the following which would you go for.

1. Dudek Nucleon 34 - weight range 140 - 175

2. Dudek Nucleon Cabrio 42 - weight range - 170 - 310

3. Dudek Synthesis 34 - weight range 135 - 165

4. Dudek Synthesis Cabrio 42 weight range 150 - 270

5. Dudec Orca 41 weight range 140 - 210

6. Paramania Revo2 29 weight range 90 - 220

7. Paramania Action GT 28 weight range 85 - 175

8. Paramania Taxi weight range 160 - 350

There are probably loads others but these are the ones I could find that meet my current weight.

I am open to any other suggestions.

I have about 100 hours on paragliders and about 10 hours on a paramotor.

Please help, as I am totaly confused.

If possible I would like to use the same wing as a paraglider wing (Not essential just a nice to have)

Thanks

[aquatix]

I'm a big pilot (but not quite as heavy as you) & I've flown (and owned) 3 of the wings on your list. Before commenting further though, what PG wing do you fly, and what sort of PPG flying are you looking to do ?

If you wanted a dual purpose wing the Mac Para Eden 4 PPG is almost unbeatable (size 33) - my favourite wing for free flying and occasional motor use.

http://www.macpara.com/en/eden-4-powered.html

Alan

[bholleran]

Until fairly recently I used to fly an Airwave Sport L (95 - 120) Paraglider, but I have clearly out grown this wing. And despite my best efforts loosing the weight is just not happening.

I had no money at the time so I bought a nearly new Gin Bolero iii XL (115 - 140), this is really nice wing but is slow in comparison to the sport and the handling is no where near as responsive as the sport.

When under power I find that I have to apply a lot of brake pressure on the Bolero as I susspect it is quite heavily loaded.

This is the wing I am currently using for paramotoring, but the guys I am starting to fly with (Seymore, Morgy, Luke) all have reflex wings and I am affecting the decisions about where and how to fly because I cannnot keep up or dont have the range etc.

When flying on my own my current wing is fine. i.e. bumbling along. But I would really like to get something that is fast enough to keep up with the other guys as well as being a bit more in the correct weight range rather that overloading a paraglider wing.

Thanks

[aquatix]

The Eden 4 is still a good choice if you want just one wing for both. Most people don't fly reflex wings flat out on bar as it requires a lot of pressure. The Eden has light bar pressure, so will easily keep up with reflex wings on fast trim. Muh more rewarding than the Bolero for free flying (which does have very heavy brakes & damped handling).

If you are going for a dedicated power wing you can discount the Orca from your list (non reflex, so no advantage) and the Revo 2 and Action GT (I think Paramania are a bit optimistic with their weight ranges and you will be too heavy on those wings).

Steer clear of the tandems if you can, as the extra size and weight just add complications to launch, and you will be flying them very lightly loaded, so they will wallow around in turbulence.

Number one on your list is the Nucleon 34 - a real gem of a wing, better than the Synthesis in handling, performance, sink rate etc. Easy to launch, rock solid stability in flight, and the handling is truly superb. You are nicely in the weight range (Dudek state that you do not count fuel in their weight figures) - I fly mine around 160kg. Only downside is the risers can seem complicated at first, but as soon as you use them you will wonder why all power gliders aren't built the same way - Michael Carnet did a superb job with the steering system !

There is another plus point - I have one for sale, still under warranty at £1000 off list price (due to impending arrival of sponsored Nucleon). I can send photo's or you are welcome to come up and have a demo flight as I am certain that you would love it. I've never got round to free flying it but reckon it would be an improvement on your Bolero with handling & performance more like the Sport, so it could be the only wing you ever need.

[bholleran]

The Eden 4 is still a good choice if you want just one wing for both. Most people don't fly reflex wings flat out on bar as it requires a lot of pressure. The Eden has light bar pressure, so will easily keep up with reflex wings on fast trim. Muh more rewarding than the Bolero for free flying (which does have very heavy brakes & damped handling).

If you are going for a dedicated power wing you can discount the Orca from your list (non reflex, so no advantage) and the Revo 2 and Action GT (I think Paramania are a bit optimistic with their weight ranges and you will be too heavy on those wings).

Steer clear of the tandems if you can, as the extra size and weight just add complications to launch, and you will be flying them very lightly loaded, so they will wallow around in turbulence.

Number one on your list is the Nucleon 34 - a real gem of a wing, better than the Synthesis in handling, performance, sink rate etc. Easy to launch, rock solid stability in flight, and the handling is truly superb. You are nicely in the weight range (Dudek state that you do not count fuel in their weight figures) - I fly mine around 160kg. Only downside is the risers can seem complicated at first, but as soon as you use them you will wonder why all power gliders aren't built the same way - Michael Carnet did a superb job with the steering system !

There is another plus point - I have one for sale, still under warranty at £1000 off list price (due to impending arrival of sponsored Nucleon). I can send photo's or you are welcome to come up and have a demo flight as I am certain that you would love it. I've never got round to free flying it but reckon it would be an improvement on your Bolero with handling & performance more like the Sport, so it could be the only wing you ever need.

Having done a bit more research I have come to a similar conclusion on some of the wings. BUT I have no real justification, just gut instinct.

1. Dudek Nucleon 34 - weight range 140 - 175

2. Dudek Nucleon Cabrio 42 - weight range - 170 - 310

3. Dudek Synthesis 34 - weight range 135 - 165

4. Dudek Synthesis Cabrio 42 weight range 150 - 270

5. Dudec Orca 41 weight range 140 - 210 - Dismissed for Speed Reasons - No Reflex

6. Paramania Revo2 29 weight range 90 - 220 - I am not convinced that it can really be that wide a range. Or the run on take off would be long.

7. Paramania Action GT 28 weight range 85 - 175 - I am not convinced that it can really be that wide a range. Or the run on take off would be long.

8. Paramania Taxi weight range 160 - 350

The above list is based on my thoughts unless any one wanted to contradict me. And If I removed the tandems, it only leaves me with the Nucleon and Synthesis.

If I remove the Synthesis on performance reasons it does only leave the Nucleon.

My concern with the nucleon is that I would be quite near the top end of the weight range, and I am still tempted to keep the Nucleon Cabrio in the running as I would imagine that it would be the best compromise of the tandems.

I know that paraglider wings can be used for paramotoring. And that if the weight range was 120 - 140 kilos it is normally assumed that you could go over by 25 % when motoring so 175 when motoring.

Now the question is are paramotor wings different to that. i.e. Is the Nucleon Basically a paraglider wing that would normally have a max rating of 140, but because it is going to be used for paramotoring they say that it is 140 * 25% = 175. Or are thy designed with the weight range of 140 - 175 in the first place.

The reason for asking is that if you compare the Bolero iii xl against the Nucleon 34, they both have more or less identical surface area and projected area. So whilst I appreciate the design of the wing will affect performance etc and the reflex will affect the speed and stability. I am not convinced that i would feel any lighter on the nucleon that the bolero. i.e. Basically it is the same size of wing.

Any thoughts on my ramblings.

Thanks

[aquatix]

It is good to look closely at the figures & question them (I wish more people would) although there are still other factors such as projected area, aspect ratio etc that affect speed and glide ratios - particularly when comparing such radically different wings as the Bolero / Nucleon.

Your main query about surface area & loading is easy though. Some manufacturers do cheat with their figures for weight range and performance by saying it is OK to fly xx% over the tested range.

Paramania's Revo 2 (L) for instance quotes a huge 130kg range on the marketing hype, yet is only tested and certified at 90-140 kg. My experience at significantly higher weight was that it flew OK and was fast, but took a lot of engine power to achieve this. Engine off, it had the glide ratio and sink rate of a brick ......

Dan (Poz) on here recounts a similar experience to mine with the Revo - engine off it falls out of the sky quite rapidly (flown over the certified weight range) whereas the Nucleon at the same weight just glides like a paraglider with a very slow sink rate. It comes in faster horizontally than a PG glider but has so much energy retention that a full flare at ground level will lift you back up then set you down gently.

The Eden 4 (33) paraglider is rated at 115-145 Kg and keeps up with all but the hottest gliders at these weights. The PPG version is the same (apart from trimmer risers and thicker main lines) but they quote a range of 153-193 Kg. Obviously speed increases with more loading but sink rate suffers a bit - glide ratio is similar apart from the extra drag from the motor.

Dudek wings are designed and tested at the weights they quote, so the Nucleon 34 has a certified weight range of 140-175 Kg (a sensible 35kg range) - with no overloading. They don't hype their figures - you get exactly what they state - and they are very transparent about their tests. On their website you can download graphs of exactly what load is on each riser at different stages of launch, landing, different trim and speed bar ranges. Try getting that from other manufacturers .....

http://www.para2000.org/wings/dudek/nucleon.html is your best reference for figures though - without any glossy marketing hype. Naked pilot weight for the Revo 2 is given as 98kg, compared to 109kg for the Bolero, 110kg for the Eden 4 and 128kg for the Nucleon (largest sizes).

Realistically, when you are perfectly in the certified weight range of the Nucleon 34 I would not consider such a drastic increase in surface area of a tandem - even if you can just scrape in at the bottom of the weight range. Best thing to do is try one though.

[bigpapa]

Hi.

I currently fly a Paramania Revo 36.

I was a similar weight to you and it seemed ideal.

I have since lost a fair bit of weight and looking to downsize, so this is up for sale if your interested?

I got it late last year. It flies lovely. I little slow to respond perhaps, but I haven't flown anything else to compare with, plus I am now fairly light on this wing.

Its a year old, and only done about 20 hours.

I also have an old (but very good condition) 42 meter tandem for sale (from when I was really heavy!).

Thats a Neurves Stromboli.

Cheers,

Geoff.

[aquatix]

The original Revo is a great wing and its a shame they didn't continue the big range of sizes with the Revo 2, as just 3 to suit every possible weight simply doesn't work.

I have a feeling Barry has now found a suitable wing .......

[thyslouw]

Hi my name is Thys I am from Cape Town , South-Africa , my naked weight was 145 kg so I think I can share some info . I started with a Swing mistral twin tandem glider and flew a pap black devil . I agree with the other posts a tandem glider is not ideal , the glider is heavy and slow . I then bought the Mcpara Eden 3 , 33 m rated 145-193 ppg , what a great wing although I was at the top end I enyoid the wing I did well over 100 hours on wing , forget to mention I flew with a pxp with ros 125 , easy take-off just get airspeed while running and apply brakes till take off . At this stage I am flying a Paramania Revo 36 , I don't fly with a speedbar this wing is fast at open trims , I fly with PXP 180 at this stage . I hope that my experience on the gliders might help I have just under 400 flights with 350 hours . I want a new glider but have no idea what to buy at this stage maybe the 34 flexway from Adventure , I want a reflex wing any ideas ? my weight now 135 kg thank you Thys .

[Harry Strain]

I'm sorry for resurrecting this old Post, however the information is very valuable, and critical for someone new, like me.  I'm a newbie, and I have a MacPara Eden 4 33, and a Parajet Volution 2 with the Polini 200 Thor/EVO.  I've been reading the thread located at and I noticed that you, Aquatix, seem to be well versed on this particular Wing, and it's loading characteristics.  

Living in Arizona, and living at about 4500 FT MSL, a larger Wing was recommended by two different Instructors.  I have the PPG Version of the Eden 4 Wing, and I have been a bit worried about the posted weight range for the PPG version of this wing, as stated on MacPara's Website.  While reading about this wing in the above Post, specifically, I noticed the Post where you pointed out the Certification Weights for the two different versions of the Eden.  I took a quick look at MacPara's Site.  You're right!  The PG Wing puts my 225 body weight / 305 LB AU weight (clothed with the ParaJet on) in the limits for the PG Wing, but outside of the limits, on the low side, for the PPG Wing.  Am I missing something?  I've been a bit worried that I bought far too large a wing, when if it were the PG Wing, I would be right in the range where I need to be.

Thanks in advance for your time and reply.

Harry.

[nforster]

you might want to start a new thread. bholleran was a well known pilot in the UK and died quite recently in a paramotor accident

 

[custom-vince]

just seen your message

Edited August 2, 2017 by custom-vince

[AndyB]

On 26/07/2017 at 12:03, nforster said:

you might want to start a new thread. bholleran was a well known pilot in the UK and died quite recently in a paramotor accident

 

Yes, March 2016. He was practising for the world paramotor 100 km speed record. 

[Jobkfire]

Hi all!

I have made a small table comparing some of the ppg wings out there for us heavy pilots (110kg to 130kg, my range). this is for recreational pilot & I found the below; 

Note that when comparing the least AR, the Gin Pegasus comes first. For large area (37 and above), seems like the MAGMAX is least in terms of AR, followed by Gin Condor and MP PAsha5.

Your opinions and experiences would be MOST WELCOME!

Joe

Edited November 14, 2017 by Jobkfire

[Jim Sutton]

Created 25 October 2021

 

Hi all:

I have made a small table comparing some of the paraglider wings out there for us heavy pilots (minimum of 135 Kg, ). Recreational wings, most EN-A and EN-B.  I found the below:

Paragliders for Heavy Pilots - Sheet1(1).pdf

Edited October 25, 2021 by Jim Sutton