subnate Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 I've narrowed it down to the freshbreeze now I'm trying to decide which engine. I'm looking for something my wife and I can share,till we can afford another one,I know I might have to get a different wing I weigh 88 kilos and the wife weighs 76 the dealer I'm going with reccomended the Simonini 210 with the 48 in cage and instead of putting the 48 in prop put the 44 in on so it doesn't torque her to bad, the reason for a big engine is we might fly at high elevations and I might add a trike later. does this sound like a good reccomendation. Any thoughts would be great is the a single wing that would work for both of us, he recommended the Edel power atlas in a Med. Thanks Nate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 Hi Nate, Dudek Sythesis 29, you'll both be in the weight range. Dudek include pilot + accessories, motor and wing weight but not fuel into their weight calculations. Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 I've narrowed it down to the freshbreeze now I'm trying to decide which engine. I'm looking for something my wife and I can share,till we can afford another one,I know I might have to get a different wing I weigh 88 kilos and the wife weighs 76 the dealer I'm going with reccomended the Simonini 210 with the 48 in cage and instead of putting the 48 in prop put the 44 in on so it doesn't torque her to bad, the reason for a big engine is we might fly at high elevations and I might add a trike later. does this sound like a good reccomendation. Any thoughts would be great is the a single wing that would work for both of us, he recommended the Edel power atlas in a Med. Thanks Nate. Simonini Mini2plus? Or the Solo 210? There is NO simonini 210!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subnate Posted August 24, 2010 Author Share Posted August 24, 2010 Well I just telling you what the web site says the model is a 122 and it says simonini 210 putting out 24 horse at 6200 rpm. If you want to check it out its the flight Junckies web site, I'm new to this so I do't know the particulars to each engine thats why I'm trying ot learn . But if you have any info that would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 Dudek include pilot + accessories, motor and wing weight but not fuel into their weight calculations. Not sure I folllow you on this line Alan ? Surely all manufacturers certify their weight range in the same way - ie EVERYTHING that goes in the air, from the wing down to the pilots boots, including fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 But if you have any info that would be great. This shows the specs of all the engines Simonini produces: http://www.simoniniusa.com/?page=Engines&Engine=Mini-2-Plus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted August 24, 2010 Share Posted August 24, 2010 Not sure I folllow you on this line Alan ?Surely all manufacturers certify their weight range in the same way - ie EVERYTHING that goes in the air, from the wing down to the pilots boots, including fuel. With Dudek it does not include fuel, have a look on their website. When you think about it the weight of the fuel disappears over the flight. Dudek are more concerned that pilots do not go underweight on their wings. The more recent ones such as the Nucleon can take 10% over according to their table. Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padeakin Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 QUOTE Not sure I folllow you on this line Alan ? Surely all manufacturers certify their weight range in the same way - ie EVERYTHING that goes in the air, from the wing down to the pilots boots, including fuel. Yes wings are EN certified using all up weight, but our weight can change during a flight as we burn off fuel , there is a risk that someone could start inside the weight range and after a while be below the weight range. That is why some manufacturers recommend using all up weight without fuel. Paul D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radical Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 Hi there Just going back to the subject of the thread title, you've correctly identified torque as a possible issue with powerful motors and light pilots, but there is also the possibility of power stall to consider. Basically as we throttle up the thrust pushes the pilot forward causing the wing to increase it's angle of attack. If the motor is powerful enough, the pilot light enough and/or the wing slow enough the angle of attack can exceed the stall point. The result would not be pretty especially as the most likely point of this occuring is just after take-off with the throttle wide open. Definitely something to be aware of and careful use of the throttle could be the answer. Hope this of help. Enjoy the flight Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 On the torque question, assuming just a prop change between 44" and 48" (without altering reduction) I would imagine the 44" prop would rev slightly higher although with a slightly lower effective mass - so would there be much difference in torque effect between them ? As to fuel, I know (only too well) that it burns up ... but surely all manufacturers should certify their weight range in the same way ? It makes things stupidly complicated if some quote clip-in (without wing) or weight without fuel. That said, I don't know of any wing that couldn't cope with a 10kg difference over or under the weight it was test flown at - unless it was an extra small ultralight model ? Still not entirely convinced by the stated 130kg weight range of the Revo 2 (29) though - (90 - 220 for PPG) but it would be interesting to see how far a small pilot on a light machine (all up 90kg) could fly with 130kg of fuel attached ....... assuming he could run with it of course ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyfreefly Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 Has anybody ever anywhere.....suffered a stall through using too much power....if so can you please enclose a link so I can see the report/statement... (( not another theory of why it should or will happen by someone )). until then I am not a believer.... Power to the people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 I've rarely heard of people getting into trouble with too much power. I wouldn't say it doesn't happen though. More power= more torque and gyroscopic effect. You dont have to use it all. It can be a bonus too. You shouldn't put yourself in these positions, but, it's handy for clearing a high hedge if your takeoff field isn't very long. Fighting against some katabatic flow on the dark side of a hill, when the best way out is up. Landing on a thermic day when the last few feet of your decent, suddenly feels sinky. And if you're cruising with a beast at half throttle it wont be working as hard as some smaller motors. I wouldn't discount the possibility of a power stall. I recently saw one of my friends wings balloon upwards after exiting a tight power turn, and he didn't back off immediately. He hung there for a bit at a strange angle, which made us all hold our breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyraider Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 Garyfreefly et al: that question haunted us for a while as the power is robust - but it was not bad like my dream. On the flip side of too much power is the thing cruises on idle and just above. Superdangawesome machine, wish I had one. Marko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subnate Posted August 27, 2010 Author Share Posted August 27, 2010 So what it's sounding like is if you use your power smart it shouldn't be a problem, and don't get to large of wing that will drag behind, I have heard it is better to overload a wing then under load, there reccomendations are to get a wing that your weight is at the top range of that wing with out the motor then when you add the motor you should be just about right. Does this sound correct, also will the smaller prop make that muc difference, or should I just leave the larger prop on and just have my wife learn to use the throttle control correctly. Hey thanks for all the feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyraider Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 Vertical climb test with a PPC, perhaps unintentional but thanks to the bloke for the lesson on climb rate. I had to see that to believe it. Ciao, Marko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyfreefly Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 AH HAA....... Just as I thought would happen I now have no need to mount my microlight rotax 912 engine in my Pap paramotor frame to prove the point ......NO STALL..... To all the none Believers the world is ...FLAT ... and you can fall off the edge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted August 28, 2010 Share Posted August 28, 2010 Awesome climb rate - or so it seems. My thought was that the camera angle has distorted the perception. Very good input Norman, there are a lot of variables comparing PPC and PPG wings. I think the fact that the PPC did not collapse is in part due to the greater stability of the PPC wing, they are not built for performance as are PPG wings. The craft was presumably very lightly loaded without its human ballast and difficult to guess the PPC characteristics under such conditions. Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyfreefly Posted August 28, 2010 Share Posted August 28, 2010 Yes ok its an academic debate .... mainly because I dont want to wreck my microlight.....for a donor engine as my previous post said please enclose a link so I can see the report/statement... (( not another theory of why it should or will happen by someone )). A well written and understandable post Norman but its still theory as far as Paramotors go So until somebody somewhere posts another Youtube video / or other evidence comes to light I am still a sceptic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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