Dave24 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 As a newcomer to PPG I'm very concerned that there appears to be very little information on which paramotors and which wings are best. I see no/few reviews/ratings and few opinions given by experts. Novices have to rely on instructors who tend to stock one or (at most) two brands of motor or wing - often the ones that he/she distributes or makes. When we buy a car, TV, fridge, movie, etc we can read loads of reviews, ratings and opinions. Experts are not scared to give their opinion. With PPG we're at the mercy of biased instrutors. As a novice, what kit you fly seems to depend mainly on what instructor you get. THIS IS WRONG! We're not just talking about a hobby we're talking about something with inherent dangers and with meaningful costs if you get the choice of equipment wrong. We need more clear-cut information about what kit works well, in what areas; and which just doesn't. And specific to this thread, we don't need any clever remarks about how difficult it is to define what "best" means. Best is simple - you all define it very well in other threads - it means lighter, stronger, better fuel consumption, better reliability, more power/control, safer, better value for money, usability, etc - in the same way that we have an idea which TVs, fridges, washing machines, cars are better, faster, more reliable, etc than others - because the information is available - and expert and user reviews and ratings spell it out better than simply going into a shop and asking the dealer which one he/she recommends (the one for which he/she gets highest commission). So I'm asking all of you out there who have at least a few years of experience to stop sitting on the fence and actually give some valid opinions, ratings, criticism, etc of motors and wings that will help novices avoid making expensive mistakes and runing their PPG experiences. If you've used two different motors, say which was better and why. If you've used more, say why ones were better for you than the others. Over time, we'll get the picture. Until you do this, PPG development will run at a snails pace, confused newbies will buy inappropriate and overpriced gear, and the sport will take a long time to grow and mature. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyfreefly Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 almost everybody using this site will probably have a different opinion of whats good and whats bad.....what suits them and what doesn,t..........whats safe in somebodys hands could be a killer in another persons....everybody is different....even the experts will argue about it all day long Thats the problem as I see it there is no easy answer to your question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 As a newcomer to PPG I'm very concerned that there appears to be very little information on which paramotors and which wings are best. I see no/few reviews/ratings and few opinions given by experts. Novices have to rely on instructors who tend to stock one or (at most) two brands of motor or wing - often the ones that he/she distributes or makes.When we buy a car, TV, fridge, movie, etc we can read loads of reviews, ratings and opinions. Experts are not scared to give their opinion. With PPG we're at the mercy of biased instrutors. As a novice, what kit you fly seems to depend mainly on what instructor you get. THIS IS WRONG! We're not just talking about a hobby we're talking about something with inherent dangers and with meaningful costs if you get the choice of equipment wrong. We need more clear-cut information about what kit works well, in what areas; and which just doesn't. And specific to this thread, we don't need any clever remarks about how difficult it is to define what "best" means. Best is simple - you all define it very well in other threads - it means lighter, stronger, better fuel consumption, better reliability, more power/control, safer, better value for money, usability, etc - in the same way that we have an idea which TVs, fridges, washing machines, cars are better, faster, more reliable, etc than others - because the information is available - and expert and user reviews and ratings spell it out better than simply going into a shop and asking the dealer which one he/she recommends (the one for which he/she gets highest commission). So I'm asking all of you out there who have at least a few years of experience to stop sitting on the fence and actually give some valid opinions, ratings, criticism, etc of motors and wings that will help novices avoid making expensive mistakes and runing their PPG experiences. If you've used two different motors, say which was better and why. If you've used more, say why ones were better for you than the others. Over time, we'll get the picture. Until you do this, PPG development will run at a snails pace, confused newbies will buy inappropriate and overpriced gear, and the sport will take a long time to grow and mature. Dave All well and good Dave but pilots do not usually have experience of many motors and wings. You will gain a lot more information by asking and looking on the forums then making your own mind up as it will depend on your size,weight, strength, age(to some extent) and what type of flying you wish to do ie quick blatt about, low fast stuff, long cross country's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hi Dave, Every wing producer has a page on there site which will tell you which wings are designed for a new pilot. As mentioned above, there are and will always be a few disagreements about this. The best advice I can give is to listen to your friends, instructor and do your own research. For the record, I have recently started supplying Dudek again, as well as Paramania, Apco and Gin, I have had a fly on many if not most of them and this is the truth of the results....... There are no bad wings out there at the moment! they are all good, they all have + and - points but non are 'bad' wings, a bad wing simply will not make it into the market place (or for sure will not stay there long) the industry is very small, and one little F up with producing a wing and its bad news for the manufacture. Stick with the main brands and the newer kit and you will be just fine. Ask your instructor and listen to what he / she says. If your trusting them to teach you, trust there advice as well. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave24 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 almost everybody using this site will probably have a different opinion of whats good and whats bad.....what suits them and what doesn,t..........whats safe in somebodys hands could be a killer in another persons....everybody is different....even the experts will argue about it all day long Thats the problem as I see it there is no easy answer to your question Gary - I don't buy it. It's a cop out. You could say the same about cars, motorbikes, etc. yet I can give helpful advice on which cars are better than others and which bikes are more suitable for most novices. If you've flown a motor, you can give your point of view on it - what you liked and what you didn't. If you've flown more than one you can say what you liked best and why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave24 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 All well and good Dave but pilots do not usually have experience of many motors and wings. If you've used one motor, you can say what you liked and didn't like about it. If you've used two thenyou can say which you preferred and why You will gain a lot more information by asking and looking on the forums then making your own mind up as it will depend on your size,weight, strength, age(to some extent) and what type of flying you wish to do ie quick blatt about, low fast stuff, long cross country's I've spent three months following this forum and "doing research" and I have no idea which wing or motor I should buy. In the absence of any valuable advice, my only option is to buy the wing and motor which my instructor sells at whatever price he sells it for. I trust him to teach me. Do I trust him to sell me the best wing and motor for me when he sells only one make of each - i doubt it. Can I buy second-hand. No - in the absence of any valuable advice I don't have a clue what I'm buying. We need reviews, ratings and opinions - not cop-out answers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave24 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 Hi Dave, Every wing producer has a page on there site which will tell you which wings are designed for a new pilot. Good point. I have a list of 31 wings and 45 paramotor producers - should I read them all or can you recommend a short-list of 4/5 of each? The best advice I can give is to listen to your friends, instructor and do your own research. I've listened to my instructor - he suggests his brand. I'm too new to PPG to have any friends sho know anything about PPG. Thats why I (and other novices) need the help of your forum. I really appreciate the ratings and comments you gave on your Rad & parajet. I wish others would follow your lead Stick with the main brands and the newer kit and you will be just fine. What are the main brands? SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 All well and good Dave but pilots do not usually have experience of many motors and wings.If you've used one motor, you can say what you liked and didn't like about it. If you've used two thenyou can say which you preferred and why You will gain a lot more information by asking and looking on the forums then making your own mind up as it will depend on your size,weight, strength, age(to some extent) and what type of flying you wish to do ie quick blatt about, low fast stuff, long cross country's I've spent three months following this forum and "doing research" and I have no idea which wing or motor I should buy. In the absence of any valuable advice, my only option is to buy the wing and motor which my instructor sells at whatever price he sells it for. I trust him to teach me. Do I trust him to sell me the best wing and motor for me when he sells only one make of each - i doubt it. Can I buy second-hand. No - in the absence of any valuable advice I don't have a clue what I'm buying. We need reviews, ratings and opinions - not cop-out answers Right then lets see if we can get you sorted What weight are you How much do you have to spend on wing (you will need a reserve also) motor do you know what type of flying you will be doing Can you afford a wing to fly for now then upgrade when you know which type of flying you prefer what motor are you learning on what wing are you learning on What wing does your instructor recommend, and why what motor does your instructor recommend, and why Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave24 Posted January 6, 2010 Author Share Posted January 6, 2010 Right then lets see if we can get you sorted What weight are you How much do you have to spend on wing (you will need a reserve also) motor do you know what type of flying you will be doing Can you afford a wing to fly for now then upgrade when you know which type of flying you prefer what motor are you learning on what wing are you learning on What wing does your instructor recommend, and why what motor does your instructor recommend, and why Thanks for giving this a go. Answers to your questions are: Weight 11 stone (70 kg) Money not an obstacle to buying best kit Reserve essential so will need one Type of flying - XC important; but also some pootling and soaring above various locations (hills, fields, beaches) I can afford to go for the best beginner set-up and then go to the best intermediate set-up when I have more experience Kit used & recommended - instructor's own (they only do one of each) - hence my reluctance to name them because I don't think they come out well in my threads. The wing I used, I'm happy with and would probably buy one; the motor was too heavy and cumbersome, so would like to explore a variety of options. As a novice, safety and stability are important, as are motor weight and efficiency (for XC). I have read the threads on hang-points safety issues which gets me worried. Since safety is important to me, this worry makes it seem more important that I get a good motor. Thanks for any advice. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Paramania Revolution Dudek Synthesis Apco Thrust Are the main 3 that new pilots tend to go for. Ozone have a reflex wing as well but I don't know much about it. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I have flown both the Revolution and the Synthesis. In my opinion they are both great stable wings, they have their own characteristics ie: the revolution on take off needs a bit more brake input but other than that l would reccommend either. (I have not flown the Apco.) My free flying wing is a UP Makalu which l have also flown with my motor but prefer wings with reflex. Regards Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 OK Dave you've prompted enough. I would certainly take heed of Simons opinions as he has the experience. I started my flying with an old wing, it got me in the air and the first 30 hours in the logbook. I then bought a 2nd hand Dudek ReAction TST - revelation The design is from 2006 and the performance is so much better. I had a query and e-mailed Dudek and received a prompt response. Look for split A risers to give you easy inflation, so my suggestions would be Dudek Synthesis (newer design than ReAction and generally advised for newbies) or Apco Thrust. I have an old model of Fresh Breeze with the solo engine. The solo is not as powerful as newer engines but is not as stressed (max revs 6300, level flight at 4700 with the ReAction - I'm 76Kg) so reliability is great. It also has a Bing carburettor which is a float type rather than a diaphram type. This means no adjustments are necessary for changing temperatures/humidity, just start and go. The float type is not suitable for acro flying but I don't so no problem. I have updated the Fresh Breeze with a newer cage design but the latest designs are even better for damage resistance. Everyone falls over at some stage, don't believe otherwise Spares are no problem as they are shipped direct from the factory in Germany (just avoid the need during holiday shutdowns ) If I was in the market for a new motor I would go for the Fresh Breeze Sportix as I like the look of it, or Parajet (service 2nd to none) or look at the PAP range. I've not come across any negative comments on PAP, matbe this will prompt some Don't be over concerned about weight, once your technique is mastered it is a non-issue. Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor4130 Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Dave. Thanks for bringing this topic up. I have been following the forum as well for a few months and have had some of the same sentiments. I am an HG Pilot currently deployed in Afghanistan. As soon as I get home in March I will be getting started in PPG, so I have been doing as much research as possible. Hopefully more will respond to your recent thread under "General discussion" Asking pilots to give an honest opinion on their own gear. Of course all equipment has its strengths and weaknesses. But as a Newbie. I want to be INFORMED, so I can choose which set of strength and weaknesses I want to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjenni12 Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Dave, as my signature shows I fly a 25m Synthesis with a PAP Ros 1400. I have only been flying 9 months but have found it a great beginner setup and logged over 50hrs on it. I have also flown a 26m rev and found it very similar though not as fast with trims out and not as responsive (more docile). Though this would be ideal for a beginner. I have only had the PAP motor but in my opinion they are one of the best made on the market that is reliable and spares can be got very quickly through Skydragons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave24 Posted January 6, 2010 Author Share Posted January 6, 2010 Thanks guys, very helpful responses. I hope your efforts get others happy to share their experiences. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 When I first started I scoured the internet and bought a brand new Pap top 80 1400 and an eagle genie paramotoring wing, the wing was very easy to reverse and forward launch and was nice to fly but a bit on the slow side especialy in to wind. I upgraded to a reaction after about 12 months I found the reaction was heavier to launch and needed a good pull on the As to get it up, for a nil wind forward I would run the engine at 50% blowing air over the wing then drop the revs and go for it the wing would then pop up very easy and I was away. I found that on full fast trim the motor was at approx 80% power and if I used speed bar it would be flat out to maintain level flight, as I did not want to blow the motor I decided to get some thing with a little bit more power. I put 250 hours on the Pap and the only thing I did was change the plug once and clean the carb once. (a brilliant motor) So what to get next?? I liked the design of the parajet but was not keen on the engine (no reason really ) just that I had looked at the Simonini and decided that this was the engine I wanted so what to get?. I decided to get a parajet frame and cage with a Simonini mini2 plus engine, after about 60 hours work the were joined in holy matrimony and it was a marriage made in heaven (as far as I'm concerned anyway), it looked nice had bags of power and was quite economical as well alas it was not to be and it went walkie s one night. I was offered a Parajet macro at the right price so bought it happy with it looked nice and flew nice I also got a new Fusion (just before the motor) so I have a really nice combination now. Did the Tip 2 Tip on a Macro and a revolution, the revolution is is the wing I liked the most in the air as I flew most of the tip 2 tip on slow trim hands off (no reflex) and it handled all the shite weather we had, no problem Pap top 80 1400 really nice and very reliable motor Parajet Macro good reliable motor but can be a bit heavy for some Parajet volution (Simons) good reliable motor but can be a bit heavy for some but a nice small cage size Revolution good solid wing ideal for a beginner but can be a bit fast on take off and landing in Nill wind Fusion 50 hours plus= writing this has got me thinking about another Simonini powered paramotor simojet again Freshbreeze OR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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