qwerty Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 The Apco Thrust HP is an Apco Thrust when the trimmers are fully in, when trimmers are in it has no reflex, but the HP is more heavily loadedthan the Thrust if you are within the weight range. If you have the trimmers in the only reason it is fast is because it is heavily loaded.So if you are near the bottom of the weight range on a HP, and you only fly it with the trimmers in until you are more experienced, then it is a good beginner wing, in fact the Apco Thrust is considered by many to be the best beginner wing available. When you become more experienced, it is still easiest to launch and land the Thrust HP with trimmers fully in, this makes launching and landing very easy, once flying you can open the trimmers and you will keep up with the fastest reflex wings. However it turns like a bus, best if you only fly in straight lines. Paul D Paul, thanks for that - but it's of no help at all. I'm looking at day 1! Assume I know nothing - and you'll be overestimating my knowledge. Trimmers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 sorry old boy no good at english thick roofer lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldeakin Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 just wonderin as i was gonna get one of these wings untill i bumped in to a bloke who has a hp thrust and a revolution and he was sayin he very rarely flies the hp he rather go on the revolution when i asked why his answer was that the revolution is more stable and he dont get bounced about as much, i was wonderin paul whats your thoughts on that? it gets very confusing lol Leoibb, I would expect the Revolution to feel more stable because it is a true reflex wing, the Thrust HP is only pretending to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 My advice, Chill out, forget about your wing and motor. Go and do your training, then you will have a good knowledge on which to base YOUR decision. everone here has reason to suggest one wing or another, one motor or another... At the end of the day, you will have to make your mind up and trust someone, for the bits you dont know. that someone should be your instructor, since you are trusting them to keep you safe. There are many wing manufactures, all have the wng for you. my personal opinion (based on manufactures advice, test piolts that have flewn for hunderds of hours to the outer limit of the kit.) If they are saying that it is not for a new pilot, it aint. They have the Apco Thrust with is there version of the (new pilot reccomended) wing. Paramania say, the Revolution Dudek the Reaction but chill for now and get into the fun of the sport. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 differences are i guess like this a beginner wing will fly its self and so not a lot of imput is needed from the pilot as they get more advanced they get faster and more pilot imput is needed to keep the wing over head and stable, i aint too sure if this is true of reflex wings but with reflex they are generally more faster. trims release or let slack on the rear lines so the front is more heavily loaded which apparently makes them safer and more resistant to tucks. the more trim the more front loaded the less of the depth of the wing is loaded the faster it will travel and the more power is required to keep level flying. i would pm simon he seems a very indepth tecnical guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macey2kk Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 bloody hell querty, bet you wish you never asked!!. dont bother flying, get yerself a motorbike then we can all debate 2 stroke or 4 stroke! road or off road! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macey2kk Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 heres a thrust hp, in action. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rGYDzMtRD4I i believe the hp was his first wing too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 (edited) bloody hell querty,bet you wish you never asked!!. dont bother flying, get yerself a motorbike then we can all debate 2 stroke or 4 stroke! road or off road! I have a motorbike - clocked at [edited] That's why I'm looking upwards. Edited November 10, 2008 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldeakin Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 Paul, thanks for that - but it's of no help at all. I'm looking at day 1! Assume I know nothing - and you'll be overestimating my knowledge. Trimmers? Sorry Dave, I didn't realise, sounds like you need to do a bit more homework. The Apco Thrust HP uses what Apco call a 'reflex hybrid technology' some manufacturers call it 'semi reflex' which means pull the trimmers in and you have no reflex or very little reflex, let them out and you have reflex. If you want to understand a bit more about reflex technology you could read what Mike Cambell-Jones has to say about it, at: http://www.flyparamania.com/index.php?o ... 31〈=en and a slightly different view from Ozone at: http://www.flyozone.com/paramotor/de/ne ... x-profile/ Interestingly Ozone say, " Reflex profile has absolutely no place in the design of a beginner wing – for all of the above reasons, it would be inappropriate for a beginner pilot to fly with a reflex profile" Yet Paramania market the Revolution reflex wing as a beginner wing. Even the manufacturers can't agree over what is best for a beginner! Paul D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuujin Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 The apco thrust HP is an Apco Thrust when the trimmers are fully in, when trimmers are in it has no reflex, but the HP is more heavily loadedthan the Thrust if you are within the weight range. If you have the trimmers in the only reason it is fast is because it is heavily loaded. So if you are near the bottom of the weight range on a HP, and you only fly it with the trimmers in until you are more experienced, then it is a good beginner wing, in fact the Apco Thrust is considered by many to be the best beginner wing available. I was thinking of getting an Apco Thrust for a first wing... Just about to order it actually. Would I outgrow the Thrust quickly? I think the Thrust and the HP are the same price, so would I be better off going straight to the HP, and fly with the trimmers in for a while? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 In the interest of clarity. I think that the Reflex V non Reflex is another conversation to be had. Lets try to help here, and not confuse. --------------------------------------------------- If you were my student, and you turned up for training on a thrust, I would welcome you. If you turned up with a Thrust HP I would tell you to find someone / somewhere else. My reason......, if you hurt yourself or worse while flying your wing the very first thing that will happen is 'they' will look at the wing, see that you are flying an intermediate wing as a new pilot. I would get every lawyer in the land offering to help your wife / other half to take everything I have to recover your losses. So check that your instructor is happy to teach you on it. Be careful when giving advice guys. (it's not what YOU think...., its the facts that matter when the poo hits the fan) SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldeakin Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 I was thinking of getting an Apco Thrust for a first wing... Just about to order it actually. Would I outgrow the Thrust quickly? I think the Thrust and the HP are the same price, so would I be better off going straight to the HP, and fly with the trimmers in for a while? Thanks! It is quite possible that you would outgrow the Thrust, You may find it too slow when you start flying XC with friends that are flying reflex wings, this is a problem you would have to face with any entry level wing such as the Dudek Nemo Moto, Paramania GoFly, Apco Thrust. You have to decide whether to start with an entry level wing that is going to be easiest to launch, then expect to upgrade fairly soon, or to get something a little faster. Ideally you would learn on your instructors equipment first, then you will be better equipped to decide. The question of which faster wings are suitable as a first wings is debatable, take advise form your instructor, but bear in mind that he may well be a dealer and selling wings from only one manufacturer. in my opinion the best advise is the advise from experienced pilots that are not selling wings. This is also a dilema for Free flying pilots, normally they will learn on a DHV1 (LTF1). After completing the Club Pilot they will have to decide on buying a DHV1 or a DHV1-2, good instructors will know if a particular student is ready for a 1-2 or if he needs more time on a 1. Is the HP suitable as a first wing? The small HP has a EN C certification (same as the Dudek Synthesis) Is the Synth good OK as a first wing? Is any reflex wing OK as a first wing? How useful is the certification as a guide? The HP is roughly the same performance as the Revolution. Is the Revolution OK as a first wing? many instructors even recommend the Dudek Reaction as a first wing. Can a 'Sports' wing be OK as a first wing? Too many questions and no facts to answer these questions only opinions. My opinion is that if you have enough skill and confidence to fly a Synth or a Revolution or Reaction you will also be OK with the HP, but you should be in the middle or bottom of the weight range not the top half. Paul D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_axb Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 My general advice is that you shouldnt try to run before you can walk and with the higher performance wings you will probably do more running and possibly more falling over. The manufacturers and instructors usually give advice and guidance for a reason and if you choose to go against that advice that will be your choice. If you are thrown into a difficult situation (because the air is never 100% predictable) with an easy to fly wing you will have an increased chance of you recovering. Good ground handling and good characteristics are important factors for your first wing and you can always connect the speed bar if you need a bit more speed. I find it strange that people complain about the speed of their wing and dont connect the speed bar. Your safety and life are more important than getting there 10 minutes faster than the next man and everyone can trim their wings or use speed bars to fly alongside each other (unless you have a point to prove). Performance and competition wings can hurt you if you are not ready to fly them - I know from experience. I know there are people that have the experience (from flying fixed wing aircraft or microlights) to fly a Apco Thrust HP or dudek synthesis as their first wing, but the greater safety margins that a more basic wing offers my be the reason that most people suggest saftey is the best option. One final point is that a wing is only as good as the pilot and although any wing can be flown badly you can look much worse on a performance wing flown badly. Get advice from manufacturers and instructors (it makes good business sense if they keep you flying safely so you become a long term customer) and listen to a good cross section of advice (and opinions?) from active paramotor pilots. Good Luck Paul Haxby AXB Sports Ltd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 All, l agree with Paul but just to add that most of us get into this sport for the fun of flight which l have mentioned in previous posts. and to enjoy yourself. The last thing you want after take off as an early pilot is to s..t yourself because of a deflation or anything else out of the norm and then wished you were back on the ground. Some schools like Simon's here have their own kit that you can use and then decide which model of wing/motor combination you want to spend your hard earned money on. also take advice from your instructor(s) they have been doing it a tad longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 My opinion is that if you have enough skill and confidence to fly a Synth or a Revolution or Reaction you will also be OK with the HP, but you should be in the middle or bottom of the weight range not the top half. Paul D Paul, I thought that greater risk comes from flying a wing that is lightly loaded than from one that is heavily loaded? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldeakin Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Paul, I thought that greater risk comes from flying a wing that is lightly loaded than from one that is heavily loaded? Correct - normally more chance of a collapse if the wing is lightly loaded, normally I would recommend being in the top half, but in some cases especially if the manufacturer has specified a weight range that heavily loads the wing, to get more speed, then flying in the lower half will make any collapse less dramatic, and make landings and take off slower. That is why many of the faster wings get a lower (safer) scores when tested at min weight than they do when tested at max weight. Paul D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuujin Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Thanks everyone! Some great feedback! I think I've just about decided to stick with my original plan and go for the plain vanilla Thrust. Though the suitability of the Thrust HP as a beginner wing seems to be a little controversial, everyone seems to be in agreement about the beginner-friendliness of the Thrust. I'm sure I can't go wrong starting with one of those. It's confusing though, when I hear the performance of the Thrust HP compared with that of the Paramania Revolution, though that is described by the makers as a 'beginner/intermediate wing'. And hearing of schools starting people on Revos too? Hmmmm.... Regarding my instructor... He, and many of the veterans around me seem to be members of the Silex Fan Club, and they try to push new students toward Silex and a Silex copy called a 'Storm'. I've spoken to some students who've become very frustrated and disillusioned with them and actually regret buying them. I don't want to make the same mistake. I have the advantage, even over the instructors here in Japan, that I can get opinions from the folks here on the forum (none of them speak English). Thanks again all! Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldeakin Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Standard Thrust - Good choice, one of the best wings for a beginner. In case anyone is still interested the EN flight test fro the Thrust HP Small can be read here: http://www.para-test.com/images/Test_Re ... report.pdf Paul D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 10, 2008 Author Share Posted November 10, 2008 So, after all that, I'm going for something else all together - as recommended by my instructor. It should be here in a couple of days. I'll not tell you what it is yet, as I've now learned that ask 10 paramotorists the same question and you'll get, at least, 11 different answers. Thanks for all the suggestions though - we can do the same again when the time comes to buy a motor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 NO!!!! Thats going to kill me have confidence in your decision and enjoy it. Cant waqit to find out what you went for! SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 10, 2008 Author Share Posted November 10, 2008 I'll let you know after I've started flying it. That way - if I've made the wrong choice - I can chop it in for something else without everybody thinking I'm an idiot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike1714 Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 For what its worth...................... Bought Paramania Revolution and PAP with Ros 125....brand spanking new...........before I have even begun to learn to fly!!!!! Like you bags of enthusiasm and just couldnt wait to get going!!!!! The PAP is spot on and has bags of power for a 104kg lump like me!! The wing is easy to reverse launch but forward launching in nil slow, slow wind is hard work. I then bought a Nemo (second hand) and dont even have to think about forward launching and its already up there waiting for me to nail the power and get up there!!!!!! I think its just a matter of practice, practice oh and even more practice.................... Mate everybody is going to tell you their wing is bette than the next!!!!! Listen to the guys ......................... they will save you money!!! Dont get me wrong I am extremely pleased with the Revo and cant wait to master the forward launch............................................Simon you mentioned something about giving lessons on forawrd launching the bugger...............are you still up for it..............of course in better weather thaan this shait!!!!! Good luck with your choice.....Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 110% up for it. Tis easy peasy, the hard bit as you say.. is getting the weather! SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantheman Posted November 10, 2008 Share Posted November 10, 2008 Couple of nice paramotors on ebay at the moment, incase you had not noticed. H&E R120 PAP TOP 80 1400 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 10, 2008 Author Share Posted November 10, 2008 Cheers Dan, I'm going to do some ground handling before I go for a motor. There's always the chance I'll be utterly hopeless - and there's no rush. So I can probably predict I'll be buying a motor after my 1st session - regardless of how I get on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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