MosterZ Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 hey, looking for a upgrade after 50h on the spyder. i dropped my eye on the snake as a turbulence proof fast all around wing with high fun ratio , but people telling me its maybe a too big leap comming from the spyder. looking for -fast wing -passive safety -2d steering any thoughts? greetings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Jackson Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 TBH it depends upon which Snake you're talking about. I'm now flying a snake 1.2 for 'fun' but kept my nucleon xx for XC flying. The snake is a really great wing but I was warned away from the Snake XX with my experience level (about 180 hours). I think it is recommended at 300+hrs! TBH the snake 1.2 is noticeably unstable compared to the Nuc XX... and great fun, but nothing scary. Its definitely a hands on wing 80% of the time. I have used it for XC's but it will oscillate due to being a that bit more unstable, but that is easily dampened out once you're hands on. Its just great fun to throw about and is extremely precise - a real pleasure to fly. I guess like all these things if you treat it with respect all should be OK. If you do make a mistake, or misjudge, the penalty on a feisty wing you're not familiar with could be catastrophic. I saw this first hand in the U.S. with a very experienced pilot... and this helped steer me to the 1.2 over the XX! I'm not familiar with the Spyder, is that on a par with the Dudek Nucleon xx? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosterZ Posted February 5, 2019 Author Share Posted February 5, 2019 (edited) The spyder is the lightweight version of the roadster 2 from ozone. Beginner / intermediate. The nucleonxx maybe would be a better choice for me, but I was told it didn't behave well in turbulent air. How is the speed of the nucleonxx compared to the snake 1.2? And why do you prefer it for xc? fuel efficiency? how is the climb rate compaired to the snake? Edited February 6, 2019 by MosterZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Jackson Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 I've certainly never heard that it isn't good in turbulent air, nor found that to be the case. I've flown in some mucky old shite too! I do know you need to keep it pressurised in deep wingovers though, but I do that anyway. The Nucleon xx is pretty fast (i'm at the top of its weight range but cruise at about 32mph) but the Snake 1.2 feels much faster (but then it would). As such it needs to be respected. Personally at face value I think you may want to look at a good intermediate wing like a Nuc xx, Report Air, Speedster 2 or Scirocco 2. A friend has recently moved from a Nuc xx to a Scirocco 2 and absolutely loves it. But it also depends upon what sort of flying you want to do. IMHO I think you should talk to instructors like Simon, Clive or Chilly as they all have loads of experience, they know what to ask you and they know the wings better than someone like myself. You may even get to try before you buy that way! Best of luck with it and fly safe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hann__ Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 On 05/02/2019 at 11:29, Lee Jackson said: I'm now flying a snake 1.2 for 'fun' but kept my nucleon xx for XC flying. Did you try a Hadron/xx? Know anything about them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Jackson Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 I was very, very tempted to get one... I hear great things about them. But then I'm genuinely really happy with my Nucleon XX - I still really enjoy flying it (I did a couple of flights with it Sunday). In essence I don't feel I've outgrown it. So in my mind I went with the Snake as more of a play wing to compliment the Nuc for XC. As I understand it the hadron is slightly more XC and so I decided not to have two XC focussed wings. That's my logic anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosterZ Posted February 6, 2019 Author Share Posted February 6, 2019 Isn't the sirocco a step down from the nucleon xx? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Jackson Posted February 6, 2019 Share Posted February 6, 2019 1 hour ago, MosterZ said: Isn't the sirocco a step down from the nucleon xx? I genuinely do not know the answer to this! I know its the lightened version of the Speedster 2 and the one below the Freeride in the Ozone range but other than that I just don't know enough about Ozone wings. I may be shot for saying this... but from my limited experience Ozone wings seem slower than Dudek (for the same wing size). But speed definitely isn't everything. If anyone knows better/more please do feel free to put me right!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flypapuk Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 Try the Niviuk Qubik, it ticks all the boxes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Morgan Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 If you like the spyder go for the Speedster 2 or Sirocco2 There Both EN-C but jumping onto any snake with 50 hours is crazy IMO... I get this question alot from people who think they are out flying there current wing but in reality there no where near out flying the wing.. My main questions would be why are you changing? what are you looking for in the next wing that your old one doesn't do for you?... If it's a little more speed and agility try moving down a size thus keeping your EN-B caritoristics (if your still in the smaller wings wing loading and test cert) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosterZ Posted February 20, 2019 Author Share Posted February 20, 2019 On 11/02/2019 at 12:33, Mark Morgan said: jumping onto any snake with 50 hours is crazy IMO... .... why are you changing? what are you looking for in the next wing that your old one doesn't do for you?... next to my (88flights) 50h PPG i have about (70 flights)60hrs paragliding experience (Pg XC licence IPP5), but yes, as i said.. the Snake would maybe be a leap too far. I would like my next wing to be -faster (i was flying most of the time on the bar trying to keep up(buddy on snakeXX with trims on 3)) -more agile meaning it needs to bank harder with less effort.(2d steering) (i'm going to Bornos to participate a beginner slalom training, so i want the wing more or less suited for that) -suited for long Xc flights, turbulent proof, decent speed untrimmed w/o bar. -good climb rate >3m/s ( moster 185+) What i liked about the spyder : -easy inflation, lightweight wing, forgiving handling, fun thermalling what i disliked: -the amount of brake to pull to get a decent bank angle, even with the 2d, steering upgrade it felt like it didn't want to turn and just likes to fly straight. -small pitch oscillations (rocking) in turbulent air, when other wings cuts right trough. -not suited for acro moves and higher G forces because of the lightweight fabric. -the speed w/o bar -sloooow climb rate 1-1.5m/s (nitro 200 full throttle) so i'm considering a NucleonXX, will be testing out the sirroco2 and snake1.2 also soon. other sugestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 When are you going to Bornos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosterZ Posted February 20, 2019 Author Share Posted February 20, 2019 12 minutes ago, AndyB said: When are you going to Bornos? in October http://www.ramonmorillas.com/cursos/cursodeslalomclasicodeparamotor-eng.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 I love flying Bornos, just 90 minutes from me. I am in Spain until mid October. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosterZ Posted February 20, 2019 Author Share Posted February 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, AndyB said: I love flying Bornos, just 90 minutes from me. I am in Spain until mid October. Nice Andy, we will be at the lake a whole week, exact date not known yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyB Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Great. Let me know when you have dates and we (me and Dan) might be camping there! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Morgan Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 MosterZ Take it from me as someone who has competed in International slalom championship on multiple occasions you need to learn slowly.. Jumping from a beginner wing to something like the snake or any other high end Slalom wing is to big a jump.. Learning to fly Slalom is not all about speed or agility but more about precision, accuracy and timing.. Being able to push Bar without touching the brakes is vital especially on High end wings.. This takes time and practise.. There is however one wing i would recommend and would be fairly cheap now as it has been out for many years would be the Original GTR, Depending on your all up weight something like the 20m would be a good place to start.. My wing loading for comps on my 15m is 7.8kg Per Sqm This is High! Very agile and needs serious power to push me around the Pylon. Something around the 6kg Per Sqm would be ok for a new pilot looking to try Slalom. 120kg on a 20m nice agile safe wing but still a big jump from a spyder I am 73kg and when i used to fly a 16m Ozone slalom on my Moster it was not powerful enough!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosterZ Posted February 20, 2019 Author Share Posted February 20, 2019 I don't expect much after 1 week training course , but i believe i could start learning the basics and the right technique for slalom flying. now i hope the nucXX would be the right tool for the job. I have 135kg (145kg full gear, filled tank) take of weight, should i go for the 24 or 26? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Jackson Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I'm also at 135-145Kg all up and have been flying the Nuc xx 24m for the last couple of years. Its been great. TBH I could also have got away with the 22m. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Morgan Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 I would still go for a GTR try a 22m @145kg There is alot of things going on when flying slalom it is nothing like flying around your local field.. Your so close to the ground and one simple mistake will put you in the water. New pilots can get focused on the pylon trying to make the turn and will pull to much and cause a flat spin or hit the brakes when on bar.. Modern High end wings are not forgiving!! a couple of inches of brake pull while on bar and you WILL have a collapse... The GTR although now old it is very forgiving fairly fast and agile.. what ever you choose good luck with the training.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosterZ Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Lee Jackson said: I'm also at 135-145Kg all up and have been flying the Nuc xx 24m for the last couple of years. Its been great. TBH I could also have got away with the 22m. what size do you have on the snake1.2? (i will be testing 1 soon) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Jackson Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 56 minutes ago, MosterZ said: what size do you have on the snake1.2? (i will be testing 1 soon) I'm now flying the 22m Snake 1.2 As its not my primary wing I could also have gone for the 20m, but I chose the 22m as its correct for my weight and I knew I'd fly it a lot more than occasionally. I absolutely love it and can see exactly what Mark is saying above. There isn't a rush here and this is a logical step towards a more dynamic wing. I seem to find myself flying the snake 1.2 when I'm on my own and the Nuc xx when flying with others, or flying a distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosterZ Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Lee Jackson said: I'm now flying the 22m Snake 1.2 Do you regret buying the 22 instead of a 20? My dealer is telling me that a 20 is more suitable even with 145 take off weight. He also suggests buying a snake and not a nucleonxx, snake would have better passive safety and better stability in turbulence. Basically saying that the snake would be a perfect all around wing. The only difficulty would be mastering the flare on landings. About the GTR, can't seem to get my hands on one. Dealer telling me it has being replaced by GTX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Morgan Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, MosterZ said: Do you regret buying the 22 instead of a 20? My dealer is telling me that a 20 is more suitable even with 145 take off weight. He also suggests buying a snake and not a nucleonxx, snake would have better passive safety and better stability in turbulence. Basically saying that the snake would be a perfect all around wing. The only difficulty would be mastering the flare on landings. About the GTR, can't seem to get my hands on one. Dealer telling me it has being replaced by GTX GTX was not a replacement for the GTR the GTS is the newer version of the GTR, Buy a secondhand GTR for around £1000 then it will not matter if and when you dump it in the water.. and you won't lose much when you upgrade to a snake xx Warp, Free ride etc etc Going up to a Slalom style wing comes with other issues like the landing and also the take off speed.. you will be traveling much quicker and you need to be able to land on Fast trims on say your old glider as this will be around the same landing speeds on a higher performing wing at a higher wing loading.. Just to give you an idea My Slow trim speed is 48-49 kph but i will still land it on a fast setting at around 60 kph airspeed just to keep the flare authority.. Your Spyder will probably only do around 50-55 kph on bar Also I would really question your Dealers Advise coming from a spyder and moving up to a snake so soon IMO is not a good idea and the fact he is also saying to buy a wing with 7.25kg per m2 is nuts!!! But that's just my Opinion... Also I didn't have enough power flying @ 6.5kg per M2 on my Moster zenith so had to move up to a 250 Edited February 21, 2019 by Mark Morgan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Jackson Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 3 hours ago, MosterZ said: Do you regret buying the 22 instead of a 20? My dealer is telling me that a 20 is more suitable even with 145 take off weight. He also suggests buying a snake and not a nucleonxx, snake would have better passive safety and better stability in turbulence. Basically saying that the snake would be a perfect all around wing. The only difficulty would be mastering the flare on landings. About the GTR, can't seem to get my hands on one. Dealer telling me it has being replaced by GTX No... no regrets what so ever. Mark is giving you great advice above. Something I am really not placed to do. I have to say that I'm also a bit surprised by some of what your dealer has said. Note I've got the snake 1.2 after 180 hours and its not my main wing. And in my opinion, it doesn't feel more stable then the Nuc xx in turbulence - nor a better all rounder. In fact in the slightest whiff of a thermal, gust or any turbulence and it oscillates (it is a wing that demands to be actively flown). Its easy to dampen, but the Nuc xx just ploughs on without correction. The Snake landings are fast but not an issue if you're adept at landing trims out for a long, high energy finish anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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