Ozone vs Paramania vs Apco Vs Dudek

[FloridaPPG]

Good morning 

I may be beating on a subject that has been discussed before. If so, please forgive me and direct me to the thread that can shed light on this topic. 

 

My question for all the experienced flyers is the following - I am a beginner - intermediate flyer with over 30-40 flights under his belt. I currently have a APCO Karma 28 that I had purchased from my instructor. It is a great beginner wing that is comfortable in the air with little to no issues in the air. However, it can be a little difficult to get a forward launch in nil wind conditions and the speed is very  slow - average 15 mph. 

I am considering purchasing a new wing that allows cross country flights with stability and speed. From the above companies, which would you recommend for a 26-28 size glider , and how much would it cost to purchase a new wing. 

I know this question is fairly long to answer but your input is appreciated and can help other buyers as well. 

 

Thank you in advance 

[Casper]

It's a question about design, A few things to consider, a smaller wing will generally be quicker to pull up in nil wind (less wing to fight with), but since they need a higher speed to generate the same lift, you need more speed. A smaller wing will also be more dynamic to fly with all the pros and cons that gives. (A strong engine will make nil wind easier, you run faster, and make the transition from running to flying easier. Also needed to get a higher angle of attack when flying smaller wings)

A advanced aerofoil will be more effective and generate better lift and speed, so a advanced design (always more expensive) can also be marginally easier to launch with. Lighter fabric definitely makes take offs much easier. Higher aspect ratios will make ground handling a bit more difficult on larger sizes, but gives better performance. Big arcs will give more passive damping, but fly less effective.

Some wings are very fast without reflex profile, and offer great take off characteristics and the same handling as regular paragliders, but since reflex gliders have better dynamic pitch stability, the designers can offer lower attack angles and much better speed range. A regular design have a higher safety margin built in, needed since the pilot have to be more active to prevent a collapse.
Everything a free flying pilot needs, but something a PPG pilot can have less off.

So, three ways to fly a bit faster. Higher wing load, more effective wing, and lower angle of attack.

I don't recommend a wing for you, and I don't like to compare brands since every wing is designed for a purpose. I know at least 19 brands that make good wings for PPG, and about 30 that make good wings for paragliders. Hard to believe that a brand survive year after year in this sport if they would make shitty products.

But giving you some info might help you understand what type of design you should invest in. Read more in this magazine (for free). And keep reading that magazine and the other out there to get a better understanding on the technical side of paramotoring. That will make every purchase the right one from now. Remember they don't sell false claims, and the handling characteristics described by manufacturers are not to hype a product, but to keep you safe.

A brand new wing can range from ~$2300 to 4400 depending on the usual factors like country of origin, import cost, material, profit. Brands usually have a fair pricing policy, you pay for more complicated designs that take more hours to make, and bigger sizes that cost more material.

A wing with a few hours can be half the retail price, ask for used demo wings if you are short on cash.

Hope it helps

[FloridaPPG]

Great feedback. Thank you for taking the time to share your insights. 
Sincerely

 

[Juan Carlos]

Thanks for answering the questions,I learned a lot 

[adamjedgar]

There is another consideration that hasnt been mentioned...speed system. If you are flying cross country you most definately want a ppg wing that has speed trimmers with a decent speed range. Some ppg wings dont have them at all, and a lot have them but with a very limited range....thus forcing pilots to use speed bar for long periods of time(which is going to burn your legs out real fast). Some wings have light speedbar pressure and others are quite heavy.

 

I personally prefer wings with a long speed trimmer range. As an example the dudek i have has a speed trimmer range of 240mm.

 

I also think you want a wing that is going to cruise for long periods of time trimmers out above 55km/hr. I prefer high trimmer out speed rather than sitting on bar, its far more comfortable for me.

[rsquared]

On 11/4/2017 at 01:28, Casper said:

It's a question about design, A few things to consider, a smaller wing will generally be quicker to pull up in nil wind (less wing to fight with), but since they need a higher speed to generate the same lift, you need more speed. A smaller wing will also be more dynamic to fly with all the pros and cons that gives. (A strong engine will make nil wind easier, you run faster, and make the transition from running to flying easier. Also needed to get a higher angle of attack when flying smaller wings)

A advanced aerofoil will be more effective and generate better lift and speed, so a advanced design (always more expensive) can also be marginally easier to launch with. Lighter fabric definitely makes take offs much easier. Higher aspect ratios will make ground handling a bit more difficult on larger sizes, but gives better performance. Big arcs will give more passive damping, but fly less effective.

Some wings are very fast without reflex profile, and offer great take off characteristics and the same handling as regular paragliders, but since reflex gliders have better dynamic pitch stability, the designers can offer lower attack angles and much better speed range. A regular design have a higher safety margin built in, needed since the pilot have to be more active to prevent a collapse.
Everything a free flying pilot needs, but something a PPG pilot can have less off.

So, three ways to fly a bit faster. Higher wing load, more effective wing, and lower angle of attack.

I don't recommend a wing for you, and I don't like to compare brands since every wing is designed for a purpose. I know at least 19 brands that make good wings for PPG, and about 30 that make good wings for paragliders. Hard to believe that a brand survive year after year in this sport if they would make shitty products.

But giving you some info might help you understand what type of design you should invest in. Read more in this magazine (for free). And keep reading that magazine and the other out there to get a better understanding on the technical side of paramotoring. That will make every purchase the right one from now. Remember they don't sell false claims, and the handling characteristics described by manufacturers are not to hype a product, but to keep you safe.

A brand new wing can range from ~$2300 to 4400 depending on the usual factors like country of origin, import cost, material, profit. Brands usually have a fair pricing policy, you pay for more complicated designs that take more hours to make, and bigger sizes that cost more material.

A wing with a few hours can be half the retail price, ask for used demo wings if you are short on cash.

Hope it helps

Casper, thanks for the heads up on the free magazine......I was subscribed to Paramotor, then they combined it with Cross Country.....I come from a free flying background, so that was ok with me......until the articles about paramotors became noticeably fewer and far between, so reluctantly I let my subscription lapse. Have not had a solid look at Aero.com yet, but hey it's free!

Many Thanks, cheers  

[Casper]

Your welcome, spread the word to everyone you know.

[TONYPARAMOTOR]

hi from my experience. if your ever thinking of buying a new wing then always get a demo on the wing.. its like buying a new car youll never buy the car without testing it.?  i wont. so thats my advice. every wing is different .just like every paramotor pilot is different.   demo  any wing before buying a wing.  nothing to lose  plenty to gain = knowledge   ;0)

[custom-vince]

That makes great sense but then from a past experience of mine, I would have not chosen a wing I owned and enjoyed had I based an experience on a demo flight, so it goes both ways.

Some years ago I moved from a Dudek Re-Action 29 to a Paramania Fusion 29. With none about to try, I took the plunge and just ordered it. First flight, I thought I had made a big mistake, it jiggled, wobbled, felt every bump, every movement of the air, fidgety was my conclusion, it set me on edge the whole time and i didn't enjoy the flight. Having laid out the cash, I flew it a few more times and got it and me dialled in. I quickly grew to love that wing and those feelings of jiggly wobbly fidgety etc soon all faded and become feedback, welcome feedback. I really enjoyed it. Before selling my old re-action I gave it another flight to compare. It felt dull, heavy, combersom, not refreshingly solid, no just dull, I couldn't tell what was going on the brakes were heavy, I was happy to sell it and get back onto my fusion.

My point is if I had just demoed the wing, I would no way have bought it. Also vice versa. If I had demoed the re-action after the fusion, I would no way buy that either. Yet both were good wings. The re-action felt like a Ferrari after the synthesis 29.

Its amazing how different a wing can feel, sometime s they feel wrong but they are not, sometimes they feel right immediately but then your not moving forward or exploring new designs. Sometimes you need longer than a demo flight to try out wing. I have based buying on advice, if a number of people are all saying its excellent then, if it fits your flying, it may be excellent.

It comes a full circle. How to decide if a wing suits you, well a demo is the only way but bear in mind it can feel very strange at first, thats not always a bad thing.

[adamjedgar]

2 hours ago, custom-vince said:

That makes great sense but then from a past experience of mine, I would have not chosen a wing I owned and enjoyed had I based an experience on a demo flight, so it goes both ways.

Some years ago I moved from a Dudek Re-Action 29 to a Paramania Fusion 29. With none about to try, I took the plunge and just ordered it. First flight, I thought I had made a big mistake, it jiggled, wobbled, felt every bump, every movement of the air, fidgety was my conclusion, it set me on edge the whole time and i didn't enjoy the flight. Having laid out the cash, I flew it a few more times and got it and me dialled in. I quickly grew to love that wing and those feelings of jiggly wobbly fidgety etc soon all faded and become feedback, welcome feedback. I really enjoyed it. Before selling my old re-action I gave it another flight to compare. It felt dull, heavy, combersom, not refreshingly solid, no just dull, I couldn't tell what was going on the brakes were heavy, I was happy to sell it and get back onto my fusion.

My point is if I had just demoed the wing, I would no way have bought it. Also vice versa. If I had demoed the re-action after the fusion, I would no way buy that either. Yet both were good wings. The re-action felt like a Ferrari after the synthesis 29.

Its amazing how different a wing can feel, sometime s they feel wrong but they are not, sometimes they feel right immediately but then your not moving forward or exploring new designs. Sometimes you need longer than a demo flight to try out wing. I have based buying on advice, if a number of people are all saying its excellent then, if it fits your flying, it may be excellent.

It comes a full circle. How to decide if a wing suits you, well a demo is the only way but bear in mind it can feel very strange at first, thats not always a bad thing.

That is so true...first time i ever flew my icepeak 2 liner free flying wing i absolutely shit myself...the feedback was so much i was sure the glider was going to simply fall out of the sky at any moment. 

I remember being told once, women have to learn to enjoy sex (whether this is really true or not i dont know...im a bloke), however it certainly rings true for going up in wing performance. After flying the Icepeak i get back on even high EnB wings and get frustrated very quickly.

[The80s]

On 11/23/2017 at 13:02, adamjedgar said:

There is another consideration that hasnt been mentioned...speed system. If you are flying cross country you most definately want a ppg wing that has speed trimmers with a decent speed range. Some ppg wings dont have them at all, and a lot have them but with a very limited range....thus forcing pilots to use speed bar for long periods of time(which is going to burn your legs out real fast). Some wings have light speedbar pressure and others are quite heavy.

 

I personally prefer wings with a long speed trimmer range. As an example the dudek i have has a speed trimmer range of 240mm.

 

I also think you want a wing that is going to cruise for long periods of time trimmers out above 55km/hr. I prefer high trimmer out speed rather than sitting on bar, its far more comfortable for me.

 

Do you think the Ozone Spyder would fit this bill?

[adamjedgar]

Havent flown the spyder, only the buzz pwr, and the sirrocco (lightweight speedster). The spyder is the lightweight version of the roadster and i suspect it is an attempt at creating a reflex crossover pg/ppg wing not unlike the dudek universal...although a slightly higher rated wing class as the universal is also very suited for the beginner straight out of school.

 

I would be interested in flying some of the latest model ozone wings to see if they have altered some fundamental characteristics i dont like.

 

I make no apologies, I am a Dudek tragic unfortunately! (I am blinded by perfection...woe is me)

Edited December 30, 2017 by adamjedgar