8086 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQej3v06Ic&feature=youtu.be Turning 45 degrees left against torque to avoid overflying neighbours at about 55 feet above ground level wing started descending added power decent increased managed to kill engine before impact into ground. Not impressed this wing does not behave the same as the Force or Force SP both of which I have flown from this field performing the same manoeuvre. Force 2 Wing has been returned to supplier in my opinion it is unfit for my use a full refund was refused. I am awaiting a response on testing from the dealer and the factory. Upon reflection I should have gone hands up and reduced power but then I would have crashed into the trees. Note this wing is sold as “highly agile, fun wing together with never before seen cross country efficiency at high speeds” Apco have increased the aspect ratio on the Force 2 (it is thinner) this combined with the Two Dimensional Integrated Brake Configuration that pulls the wing tips with the brakes, and the new Automatic Balance System that also pulls on the tips along with the slower trim speed seem to have reduced the stability in my opinion. It seems usability has been sacrificed for efficiency also Apco SRS® - Automatic Stall Recovery System does not work that well. Very lucky to walk away with just bruising and sprains. Edited November 7, 2016 by 8086 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin (Simon W) Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Great that you are here to tell the story about it but crap that it happened Video embedded below. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8086 Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 Thanks Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanashton Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Can we know why you think this happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin (Simon W) Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Turning against the engines torque on take off is never a great idea. It looked to me to be quite a slow take off as well which would not have helped. The sportier the wing the more this is a possibility. As suggested by @8086 they have reduced the aspect ratio which is the simplest way to add a sporty feel to a wing, this of course comes with bad points as well, including a higher stall speed. I have not flown the Force 2 but we have a Force 1 in the school for ground work (which was given to me) That was a nice wing to be fair but the gauze vents in the leading edge seemed to 'fall apart / degrade' after a season of use so I stayed away from that point on. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbertflyer Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Don't think the Force 2 has any independent recovery test certification. Not suggesting that had anything to do with this particular issue, but worth considering when flying. There was a famous Mac stall on a beach nearly landing on a dog which may have similarities: Glad no serious injuries Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admin (Simon W) Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 Paul Haxby put this short clip together yesterday in response to the first video. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8086 Posted November 10, 2016 Author Share Posted November 10, 2016 Paul Haxby should state is the UK Apco representative and dealer. I have 30 hours flying the Force 2 23 hours on a loan wing and 7 on the one in my video, this wing stalled on TWO occasions, the first time sinking into trees, the D lines also went slack on me in rough air (6 inches slack on right side when flying). Paul Haxby sold me the wing and I returned it to him as unfit for my use. I have discussed with Paul Haxby that it may be better to advice pilots of the Force II to take off on neutral trim to raise the flying speed. Comments on Paul Haxby Apco Force II Turn Against Torque Test video: It is unusual to have brakes flapping when flying low at (0:53) at very least brakes should be in your hands at normal flying position this would be at least 10 to 20cm lower than in your video. My machine is low hang point yours is high, we have different engines. I re-state this wing seems to be very brake sensitive (e.g. ready to stall) at slow speed. Note: If Flying the Apco Force 2 under the BHPA insurance scheme make sure that you have filled in and returned your Pilot’s Declaration: Uncertified Wings. About me: I have 30 hours on the Force 2 and over 500 hours on Apco wings, having owned and flown: Apco Sierra, Apco Thrust, Apco Thrust HP, Apco Force, Apco Lift, Apco NRG, Apco Force SP, Apco Force 2. In various places worldwide. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi k Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 Having watched P H's video i think i would of been happier trying that above 500ft incase i had to deploy my parachute, not saying he's not a competent pilot and has 100% faith in his wing, just me personally would prefer a little more of a safety blanket for the possible failure factor. 1st test 130ft and 2nd 235ft thats gonna leave a dent in your body if it does go wrong. Or is this just my over cautious nature kicking in ?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dariuszk24 Posted November 10, 2016 Share Posted November 10, 2016 I put my 5pence How many flyers after fly pack they wings dry ? Or if its damp dry in home? Dynema lines need a good stretch this type of line like to.shrink itself if no used Same are to the lines of the Wet or damp lines are prone for shrinking,sometimes significant shrink in centimetres . How many flyers regulary check wing canopy and lengths of lines by profesional service??? We need to full trim are wings every 100 hr or 2 -3 years Or much much earlier if lines have contact with water But reality are different ,everyone just fly Shrinkage row C and D leading to stall the wing in lower speed http://extremesports.about.com/od/acro-paragliding/fl/The-Curse-of-the-Incredible-Shrinking-Paragliding-Line.htm But apco force 2 are used on dynema lines this are relly painfull stuff. Unused for long time(no loaded )they can shrink it self significantly in inches This are small sample Hi, First a disclosure, I'm the technical manager at Marlow so I have a vested interest. We produce hundreds of thousands of metres of D12 type rope each year and the feedback for 99% of it is good. However we have have had rare reports like this one spanning perhaps 10 years, only 2-3 per year though. With such few reports it's difficult to pin down exactly what's happening. These reports cover several different industry areas and applications, D12 and D12 MAX, covered and uncovered ropes. We've never found a fault in the material or the construction suggesting that this shrinkage is due to the environment in which the rope is used/stored. The common factor appears to be that the ropes reduce in length while in an unloaded condition rather than when in use or even when new. What we can definitly say is: -All the ropes are made from DSM Dyneema fibre, either SK75 or SK78. -This phenomenon has been reported on both D12 and D12 MAX which undergo different stretching conditions. -Dyneema does not shrink in water like some other fibres. -Dyneema will shrink if it gets hot when under no tension. As this can affect both D12 and D12 MAX I don't think the stretching process we put the rope through here at the factory is the cause. Some of the ropes have not been used until months after stretching so residual 'shrink back' is unlikely. We've also not seen this occur with rope in our factory. DSM Dyneema (the fibre producer) have been informed of this in the past and heat is the only explanation they've been able to offer. Therefore the most likely cause and the only one we've been able to re-produce in the factory here is that the ropes have been exposed to elevated temperatures while they are stored, the sort of temperatures required would be possible if they were in a mast in the sun for instance. Unfortunately this can only really be proved or disproved by feedback from people who have seen this issue and can report on the conditions the rope was under when it happened. Until then it just remains the leading theory. I also see from the previous post that it's happened to the Chinese UHPME fibre as well So it's not just us! BTW: For the record: EB's Dynamic range is made from exactly the same fibres and has very similar construction and stretching process as the D12 so is unlikely to behave any differently in this respect Same problem have kite surfers http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/General/Shrunken-lines/ But we are in danger if unknown that http://www.ojovolador.com/eng/read/reports/lines/ Sorry about the long post, hopefully it's helpful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paragliderelad Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 What size wing? ,what is your hook in weight?- all( standing on scale ready to fly, paramotor on your back(no fuel, helmet, instruments, wing in your hand). The heavier you are on same size wing, the faster you need to fly. I'm 115KG hook in on the force 2 M (145 max) ,20 hr on it, its super safe wing, very slow landing/take off speeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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