Free flyers - advice please

[norman]

Gents,

Trying to collate data here. What do you reckon is the best wing to free fly and paramotor with. Sure it means compromise - but does anyone have a view about the wing that might provide a good compromise?

Basic to intermediate. DHV1 for a recently qualified PG/PPG pilot?

Tining caps on

[Farmer_Dave]

My Sky Atis 2 is very good. I met guys using them in the mountains in Europe and I put 50 hours on mine (ppg) with a 45 kilo overload. Met a guy in Spain, who tests wings and writes reviews for a magazine. His take on the Atis was near dhv 1 safety with almost dhv 2 performance when it's called for. Rated dhv 1-2 (or ENB)

A friend flys the U turn Emotion and had the highest and longest flight when we went to France in Feb. I've heard others remark on it's good performance too and also with a motor. I might get a chance to fly it on Monday night as he is coming to try the "dark side". Rated dhv 1

These are just 2 that I know are good Norman. There are many others no doubt

[Guest]

I recon the Ozone Electron / vibe (for a cheep alternative)

Or the Go fly if buying new. (for a newbie pilot who wants to PPG and PG)

SW

[pauldeakin]

Gents,

T What do you reckon is the best wing to free fly and paramotor with.

Basic to intermediate. DHV1 for a recently qualified PG/PPG pilot?

Tining caps on

If you want a DHV1 you should take a look at the Apco Karma it is a very good performing DHV1 you can get it with paramotor risers, when the trims are fully in the risers are the same length as the standard Free flying risers, then you can let them out when using it with a paramotor this prevents it hanging back too much when flying under power.

If you are ready for a DHV 1\2 then I would recommend the Windtech Kinetik Plus, it gives better performance than the Karma, it is trimmed more for paramotoring, but is very good free flying as long as you keep the trimmers fully in. I have been free flying one of these recently, and am able keep up with other 1\2s and some 2s. Only bad point is that it’s a bit heavy, mainly because it has thicker lines that many free flying wings.

Both of these gliders are only DHV certified with the standard paragliding risers.

One thing you should look at is the weight ranges on various gliders, and your weight when free flying and when flying with a motor, ideally you would be in the middle when free flying then near the top when motoring, but this may not be possible.

Paul D

[pete_b]

Eagle genie if there are any for sale.

Pete b

[t_andrews]

What sort of Data are you collating Norman?

I can't offer much more than subjective opinion, and admit even that is biased toward what I've flown and the limited conditions for those.

I would suggest that any wing a pilot can adjust in flight is an extension to that pilot's toolset, but that adjustability found in powergliders is neither fully recognized nor appreciated yet in the free flight community. I cannot fairly compare my Fusion 29 with the Epsilon4 as the E4 has fixed geometry save speedbar AOA changes, and the Fusion has Risers that move like the world famous tides in the bay of Fundy.

From my limited experience with the Fusion, on full slow trim it is as lifty as the E4 (with a couple more meters of fabric @31), but at the same time does not store energy as efficiently. It will roll a little faster, probably due to a shorter span, but also bleeds height faster for the same bank angle. All slow trim observations, where one would expect to free fly the Fusion. I haven't cored with it, so can't comment. Also as caveat, the Fusion benefits from 6 years of global PG development the E4 didn't have. You're right on with the compromise, as a faster roll rate is preferred when you've got a throttle to compensate with height loss.

I will say I haven't had the E4 out of the bag since I first inflated the Fusion...

[norman]

Thanks for the info gents, all top stuff.

Paul W, Piers and myself are planning Karan's next step. Potentially sourcing a wing that suits free flight and PPG that has benign characteristics for a beginner flying in Nepal is where we are at the moment. Nepal is a heavily convective zone at high density altitude.

Paul who has plenty of free flight experience is casting around at his end, I thought I would muse over it here. It is also an interesting subject to ponder.

When Karan has completed his training he will need to accumulate flying experience as safely as he can. Until we can source kit and get it out there it may be desirable for him to free fly to get to know his aeronautical environment and learn to soar. There are plenty of hills, bags of sound advice and loads of opportunities a short drive from where he lives - silly not to at least look at it?

We are not at the decision stage, we are just looking at options at the moment but will share the information here when we move forward.

Simon Payne is the one man we need to talk to at length I think. He knows the arena having been there and is a free flight Guru.

[morgy]

I it was me i would buy a cheap second hand pg wing and keep you normal ppg wing and when you have a few hours under your belt get a FUSION it works very well on the hill

[pete_b]

I it was me i would buy a cheap second hand pg wing and keep you normal ppg wing and when you have a few hours under your belt get a FUSION it works very well on the hill

I think you will find that Karan is on a very limited budget and two wings are out of the equation at the moment.

Pete b

[norman]

Research, research. Measure four times cut once.

We are fund raising to help the guy train and equip. He would need to work for a year to afford a free flight harness. That's if he put everything into the effort - every penny. The guy isn't a pauper, he is a proud soldier in the Indian Army - its just the gulf that exists between eastern incomes and western equipment prices. A gulf that with some ingenuity and a little generosity we can close and get this guy into the sky over his homeland. Because he is one of us and it would take him a very long time to do it alone.

But something tells me he would do it...

[flyingal]

Hi,

Myself and a friend both trained on the Ozone Electron in our free flying days and still fly them today under power.

The following year after completing our CP's we spent 2 weeks in Pokhara getting in as much flying as we could, it was a lot of flying, only one day non-flyable due to low mist and the wings performed flawlessly. On one flight, through my own pilot error I ended up on the lee side of a very big mountain, it was absolute diaper filling rock'n'roll for over 500 feet until I eventually touched down with much relief in a villagers back yard, but all the way down the Electron was solid.

So thats 2 votes for the Electron

Cheers

Al

[norman]

Thanks Al,

There is nothing like personal experience related after a baptism of fire is there. I am getting quite a database of recommendations in the background here, one like you has been to Pockhara and related his experiences and tied them in to recommendations. Ozone does seem to come out well. The broader advice does seem to rotate around a PG wing that can be used for PPG. The conditions over there can be a tad wild at times I gather, but the payback is fantastic thermals and long flights.

[Guest]

The other thing to say about the Electron (or indeed the Vibe 'a tweeked version of the same wing' ) is that they are 10 years old now, and you should be able to find one for £500-£800 ish.

SW

[outkast]

if you can find one, the early non reflex motor wings should be cheap, I have the sting powerplay, wich is the motor version of the swing arcus, it can be flown with or without a motor, as a newbie it fitted the bill perfectly, its got great launch characteristics, is very docile on slow trim and inspires confidence on those first few flights, I have also found the trim range to be quite good for what is essentialy a hill wing design, mine had been groundhandled for just two hours, I paid £1000 for it, as someone elase mentioned the eagle genie is in the same sort of range.