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anti toque strap


Guest leoibb
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hello can someone give me some clear information how an anti toque strap works and if i can use one on a walkerjet? i was under the impression that they was only used on machines were you connect the wing to the harness, i would be greatfull if some wizzard explains it to me and maybe tells me if i can use one on my machine and will there be a significant difference , i have tried all things now with no luck 1 placed reserve on the left 2 made it so there is more pressure on the harness to the left and other bits but it aint made a bit of difference , it is concerning me now as when i take off the wing banks right over and within 100 feet off the ground i have turned 90 degrees, to fly straight a sit right in the left hand corner of the harness and cross my right leg over my left to keep all weight there and use tril one full on and one full off.

this seems to be an extreem and i dsont think it should be this way so any help advise would be good

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thankyou for the imput yes i will upload some pics i was under the impression that a lot of people avoid torque by changing the trim to suite? ah well i am learing somethin here tell me more bout that? now i didnt get it new no and have had torque on it all the time, looking close up on it i see the engine does not sit in the middle it is slightly off to the right, bit the prop os central and the mount holes are the propper ones, i know i am pickin at straws really but there has to be a solution to it, the arms are equal and the carribs are too so i dont know? just wonderin i know all motors give some torque how if not usin the trim do you fly straight?

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thankyou for the imput yes i will upload some pics i was under the impression that a lot of people avoid torque by changing the trim to suite? ah well i am learing somethin here tell me more bout that? now i didnt get it new no and have had torque on it all the time, looking close up on it i see the engine does not sit in the middle it is slightly off to the right, bit the prop os central and the mount holes are the propper ones, i know i am pickin at straws really but there has to be a solution to it, the arms are equal and the carribs are too so i dont know? just wonderin i know all motors give some torque how if not usin the trim do you fly straight?

Hi Leoibb.

I think the problem is more likely to be with the wing rather than the motor. You appear to have made changes to try and help, reserve position, weight shift etc without noticable change.

I would check the line lengths especially on D lines / break lines, compare left to right. I would guess your wing profile is not correct ie left and right side of the wing are different shapes for some reason. Check for knots high up the lines.

Flying with different trim settings is not efficient and more importantly creates a higher angle of attack on the slower side making it closer to the stall and there is a danger of entering a spin (very sharp turn). If this was to happen on a base leg to final approach to landing, or any low flying you wouldn't have enought height to recover.

As with any aviation, make doo adjustments Vs solve the problem is the way forward.

Good luck.

Whitters.

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im not sure the answer is in the wing altho i will check to be sure but i have used two wings with this motor same on both wings so i dont know, just to let you know this i am aprox 12 13 stone so not very heavy , when flyin i noticed the motor hung back the pitch wasnt right and i could not ajust no more it is walkerjet and it is on the closest conection to me.

so i put a paded cusion under the harness so when i sit in it the motor tips more forward so the angle isnt as bad now that is fine i expected the torque to be less severe but i think it may be worse, but the problem is when i take the cussion out the motor hangs back again which creates torque , so i am wonderin if it is the cussion

let me try explain?

when i run and lift off i am straight in the seat it picks me up which i dont mind. me and the motor tilt over to the left rapidly , now i am wonderin if the cussion isnt centred right then more pressure could be on the wrong side of the harness making things worse??

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It is nothing to do with the cushion there is something seriously wrong on how your motor is set up.

DO NOT fly this motor until you get an experienced pilot that knows what they are doing to look at it, you are in serious danger of riser twist on take off if you try to stop the turn on take off.

Pete b

You have been warned.

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hello yes this is why i aint been out on it , now as i have explained the machine is ok in its self everything is straight , to be fair i need some consructive advise not someone sayin dont fly it because as it is i aint flying it, now there is only so many things that can be the issue and if i go through everyone one by one i will find the problem i dont think there is anything serious with it or it would show in the frame set up of it dont you agree? i have checked measurements were relevant and all measure up equal , i aint dismissin what ya sayin that riser twist i am with you on that and potentially dangerous so i need it sorted, but to go to experenced person and for them to scratch there head seems pointless , construction wise the only way it will torque seriously is.

1 if the engine was off set to the side?

2 the weight was far greater at one side?

3 the risers was different heights?

4 the harness was set to one side so your weight is more at one side?

so were else can one look? i am gonna take some pics not with the frame on but of the engine and arms so you see they are fine.

going back to the question i asked and that is how does one fly straight if they do not use the trim settings??

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I had a Parajet frame (low hang points) and put a simonini in it, I weigh 86 kilos and have almost no torque steer so if you have the amount of torque steer that you say you have then you do have a serious porblem.

Bring it to me and I will tell you what is wrong within an hour or so.

Pete b

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if the plane in wich the prop is spinning moves too far from the vertical you will be seriously close to encountering torque proccesion, a very serious problem, get it down to Pete before attempting to fly it again, you may need to do a hang check on it to get it set up properly once the problem is solved.

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if the plane in wich the prop is spinning moves too far from the vertical you will be seriously close to encountering torque proccesion

this is i assume when the machine hangs back and the prop isnt 5 degrees roughly and becomes a lot more if so i am very aware of that and the hang test is fine

hopin to go down to pete and sort the problem but i can assure you its nowt to do with no hang test not being right

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You will always feel some torque steer with a powerful unit with fixed hangpoints Lee. A good wing will improve matters though, to the point where you can cope with what you cant get rid of. My unit's even more powerful than yours, with the same configuration, and I flew round in circles with my old wing on full power. Not so on the new wing though. I think Whitters had a point with the line lengths. Or maybe you fly a wing with lots of drag and a poor glide ratio. The better the wing the less power needed to stay up- the less torque.

Before you write the motor off as uselesss, which you wont have to, dont forget the extra safety you get from the forward frames. Also, 7 hours might be a bit early to progress onto a really good wing but you'll get there. Hope you can remedy the problem in the meantime.

What wing you flying at present?

Dave

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well i am on action 29 but flew an old big wing before and same problem. can i ask you with you havin same machine ya know these walkerjets on all pictures i have seen look like they hang back more than others? i have my conections on the closest to me and i did put a cussion under the back of the harness were there is a pad weiil i stuffed the pad more so when i set in the harness it pushes the bottom so the top lifts? if that makes sence? so i have it hangin right but i still got the torque, also i ajust the trims so i fly straight but been informed it isnt wise? so am wonderin how do you fly straight if you do not ajust the trim? also does your machine hang back , what i mean is when you fly is it more than the 5 degrees ? all machines on pics look a lot more than 5 degrees on these machines

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I must say that I was of the same opinion as Leo, that using the trims differentially is one way of managing torque steer, at least to some extent. Although perhaps not in such an extreme manner as one full in and the other full out. Any other measure is OK, (such as different length carabiners or offset thrust line,) but they all suffer from the problem that they will only give the correct amount of torque correction at one particular throttle opening. Using the trims however, you can alter to suit your current RPM.

The point about 'increasing the angle of attack' possibly precipitating a stall or spin makes no sense to me, as you tend to have the trims fully (or mostly) in, and hence at the greatest angle of attack during your landings and take off's (in order to increase lift) anyway. I see no substantial difference between having a slight trim differential and maintaining some brake pressure on one side. Both are altering the angle of attack and bringing the slower wing closer to stall, that's the way in which most aircraft take off and land. Of course it's not fully efficient, but just take a look at our machines, and there is precious little about them that is efficient!

As for torque (gyroscopic) precession, changes to the plane of the prop don't increase or decrease it, it merely changes the direction in which the force is ultimately applied. It also only has a noticeable effect during turns anyway, as the prop (gyroscope) when in steady state exhibits very little precession at all. Try the bicycle wheel in your hands test. As long as you don't try to displace the spinning wheel from it's current position, you will only experience a very small precession due to friction in the bearings. However, if yo try to turn the spinning wheel, THEN you will feel the movement being shifted through ninety degrees.

More info from referenced sources is very welcome, but like Leo says, just saying 'don't do it' is not at all helpful and can in fact lead to some quite gross mistruths being propagated.

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let me try explain?

when i run and lift off i am straight in the seat it picks me up which i dont mind. me and the motor tilt over to the left rapidly quote]

You started off by saying you have your reserve fitted to the left and sit to the left of the harness with your right leg crossed over your left??.....therefore your motor WILL tilt to the left when you take-off, obviously. Sounds simple but are you adding weight to the correct side?

If your prop spins anti-clockwise as you look at it from behind then yourself and paramotor will tilt right on take off so you add weight to the left. If prop spins clockwise (most common) as you look at it from behind then yourself and paramotor will tilt left on take-off so you add weight to the right side. Which way does your prop spin?

Edited by Guest
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Hi

You say the engine is offset slightly to the right....is this as you look at it from behind? Or put another way, as you sit in the harness is the engine slightly to YOUR right as you face forwards? This suggests to me that your paramotor has been built to counteract the torque of the prop spinning CLOCKWISE (viewed from back).....torque effect wants to tip you and motor to the left on take-off so engine is offset right to resist.

Therefore if you have been adding weight to the left then you are making the torque effect WORSE by adding weight to the left instead of right??

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The prop spins anticlockwise (looking from behind the machine) They torque to the right when you open up. He's right to shift weight to the left. I moved my fuel tank over there too. Just need to remember to be ready to break right, lightly, to stay straight on landing approach.

Not sure about the offset motor, but I dont reckon Walkerjet will have that wrong. I've seen units here with offset link arms. I guess that amounts to the same.

I've heard of having one short karabiner and one long but dont know how it works. All I can see there is that you would be sat on a seat that's not level.

I saw a diagonal strap on a unit near me but it's on a spare machine and the 4 other walkerjet pilots dont use them. I'll take a close look next time I'm there.

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thanks for the replies as i was sayin when it lifts me it throws me right not left i made a mistake sayin that sorry} so i have to once at height lean my arse into the left hand side of seat with legs the right one crossed over the left so all my weight is on the left>

i think your right dave i dont think walkerjet got it wrong with the holes for the engine but sat in it the engine is to the right slightly. what makes it worse i think is the exhaust comes out and to the the right which will add weight to the right, you was sayin dave you moved your tank that may be a good option for me cos there not very big tanks and i was considerin havin a bigger tank on it? do you have pics of how you did it?

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You should expect some torque steer with a Walkerjet but it sounds like you are experiencing much more than normal. On my Walkerjet I only experience it on full power, but I rarely use full power.

I agree with Phil, that it is OK to manage torque by offsetting the trimmers a little, you can of course set them evenly when landing, because torque is not a problem when landing. It is however preferable to counter it with weight shift, and hangpoint adjustment. You will probably need a combination of all these.

You can try various ways of adjusting the weight, someone mentioned different sized carabiners, you can also get different sized straps that go between the carabiner and the frame, I have experimented with this on my WalkerJet but did not like it, as I prefer it to be balanced correctly when I have the power off. I am now able to manage the torque without the need for these, simply by controlling the power and weigh shifting, although I do still have my reserve mounted on the left, which helps a bit. It is true what Dave said about how wings behave differently, I also used to fly around in circles when I flew a Dudek Nemo, but when I changed wings it was no longer a problem.

RE: the motoi hanging to far back

If the motor is hanging too far back, make sure you are on the hangpoint nearest to the motor, and try tightening the straps that pull the back of the harness forward (if you have these on the older model). If it still does not hang right, eat more pies, and get some heavier boots. You should really sort this out before you fly.

It sounds like you are sitting down too soon and at risk of twisting the risers, I suggest you stay in the standing position for longer when launching, get more height before you raise your knees and sit down, you may even be able to come of the power a bit before you sit down, you will find that the torque has less turning effect when in the standing position.

PaulD

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  • 3 weeks later...

thanks for the replies been interesting , i did go down to paul axbies and showed him with a take off he said no problem and said it will be like that as all powerfull machines are the same.

better to be safe tho and ask thanks

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