Paramotor wing for a beginner

[Olz]

Hello! 

I am currently learning to fly a paramotor. I have been using a paramania gtx for ground handling so far. However to progress further I need to purchase my own wing. I would love to get a paramania revo or gtx styled wing, around 24m. I will be flying using a 100cc engine and I weigh around 11-12 stone. Please feel free to suggested any other appropriate wings. I am on the hunt for something that I will be able to grow into and is not so easy that it will become boring, however similarly I wish to be safe and not thrown in too much at the deep end.

Thanks all! 

PS. I am down in Dorset, UK, so ideally nothing too far away although I am whilling to travel for the right wing. 

[custom-vince]

new or used?

for used: search used columns and Facebook for sale groups.

Revo2, Revo3, Dudek Synthesis 2, Ozone Roadster 2 are the main ones. then apco & itv. all sorts of things allow you to grow, the better they are the dearer they sell for.

 

For new:

Revo 3, Ozone Roadster2, Spyder, Dudek have confused things now calling everything universal and adding a decimal point. so one of those is an option.

[admin (Simon W)]

As above, if new you just have to look at the Dudek Universal 1.1 

We have a few second hand Synth 2's at the moment if you would like to chat. 

SW

 

[SteveR]

Hi I am also new and also want to get as much info as possible re wings. What is the difference between the Ozone Roadster2, Spyder and the Dudek? I know the Spyder is lighter but what advantage is there in these 2 Manufactures? Is there an advantage to having a lighter weight wing? 

[huggy98]

G'day. I'm going to learn and i will also be looking to buy some new gear. I've been searching online and i found this website that has thoroughly tested 16 beginner and intermediate wings. you've probably bought yours by now but i hope it's of use to other new and not so new pilots.  https://www.dhv.de/web/en/safety/safety-tests/ltf-a-and-b-class-saftey-check-part-1/

Edited March 24, 2018 by huggy98

[adamjedgar]

First parameter wing was an Ozone Buzz PWR Z4...complete waste of time...only lasted about 5 flights on it before changing to a reflex glider. The buzz became my free flying only wing for quite some time and was excellent for that purpose.

My first and most favoured reflex wing was, and still is, a Dude Universal (the original not the 1.1). 

I have just purchased an Ozone Sirocco (once again the original not the Sirocco 2).

 

I can honestly say, the Dudek Universal is by far a better designed wing than the Ozone Sirocco. It is obviously a lower end glider which of course makes an enormous difference too. The dudek is an En A/B and the Sirocco En C. Have outlined that, irrespective the dudek still has better design features and is far more resilient against torque induced steer in any configuration than the Sirocco...even at cruise. Its trimmer system works better, it is actually far easier to control on launch, turns better on main brakes without also using tip steering (which is a must with the Sirocco), although it is heavier on speed bar. 

I have only put about 2 hours on the Sirocco so its early days but I have to say I do not trust this wing whereas the Dudek is near bullet proof in the air in a wide variety of conditions.

The Sirocco is faster in top speed, however I am not actually convinced it is significantly faster on only trimmers...just when bar is used. So for cross country on trimmers, the Dudek is very competitive, a lot safer, and easily twice as comfortable in bumpy stuff.

Paramotoring is about a lot more than speed and zippy manouvres. For your first wing paramotoring, I would advise against going for a sportier wing...you will walk away from far too many botched takeoffs and especially botched landings wishing you had a lower end wing.

From my experience the difference between the Sirocco and Universal in takeoff and landing is actually quite significant...of particular interest in my opinion is landing speed.

A new pilot should always buy a wing with as low a landing speed as possible (preferably a wing whose minimum flying speed is in the very low 20km/h range). You won't actually be touching down at this speed but must learn how to bleed off speed in the final flare to reduce touchdown speed below about 15-17km/hr...and this is because I don't know of any human that is capable of running at 20+km/hr with 30-35kg on their backs without tripping ass over head so often that ones parameter unit is going to start looking like a demolition derby vehicle within just a few short hours. Damage to ones ppg unit means frustration, cost, and eventually an unwillingness to fly as often as is needed to maintain proficiency (thus it becomes a vicious cycle quickly moving towards giving up the sport).

I would recommend a Dudek universal (or synthesis) as first wing 100%.

 

[huggy98]

40 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

First parameter wing was an Ozone Buzz PWR Z4...complete waste of time...only lasted about 5 flights on it before changing to a reflex glider. The buzz became my free flying only wing for quite some time and was excellent for that purpose.

My first and most favoured reflex wing was, and still is, a Dude Universal (the original not the 1.1). 

I have just purchased an Ozone Sirocco (once again the original not the Sirocco 2).

 

I can honestly say, the Dudek Universal is by far a better designed wing than the Ozone Sirocco. It is obviously a lower end glider which of course makes an enormous difference too. The dudek is an En A/B and the Sirocco En C. Have outlined that, irrespective the dudek still has better design features and is far more resilient against torque induced steer in any configuration than the Sirocco...even at cruise. Its trimmer system works better, it is actually far easier to control on launch, turns better on main brakes without also using tip steering (which is a must with the Sirocco), although it is heavier on speed bar. 

I have only put about 2 hours on the Sirocco so its early days but I have to say I do not trust this wing whereas the Dudek is near bullet proof in the air in a wide variety of conditions.

The Sirocco is faster in top speed, however I am not actually convinced it is significantly faster on only trimmers...just when bar is used. So for cross country on trimmers, the Dudek is very competitive, a lot safer, and easily twice as comfortable in bumpy stuff.

Paramotoring is about a lot more than speed and zippy manouvres. For your first wing paramotoring, I would advise against going for a sportier wing...you will walk away from far too many botched takeoffs and especially botched landings wishing you had a lower end wing.

From my experience the difference between the Sirocco and Universal in takeoff and landing is actually quite significant...of particular interest in my opinion is landing speed.

A new pilot should always buy a wing with as low a landing speed as possible (preferably a wing whose minimum flying speed is in the very low 20km/h range). You won't actually be touching down at this speed but must learn how to bleed off speed in the final flare to reduce touchdown speed below about 15-17km/hr...and this is because I don't know of any human that is capable of running at 20+km/hr with 30-35kg on their backs without tripping ass over head so often that ones parameter unit is going to start looking like a demolition derby vehicle within just a few short hours. Damage to ones ppg unit means frustration, cost, and eventually an unwillingness to fly as often as is needed to maintain proficiency (thus it becomes a vicious cycle quickly moving towards giving up the sport).

I would recommend a Dudek universal (or synthesis) as first wing 100%.

 

I've just got off the phone with Adrian at backpack airsports in Munno parra, South Australia and he sells the Dudek uni. he also sells the skymax paramotor. up until now i hadn't heard of them and i was undecided between a parajet maverick pro and a zenith. one of my main consideration is to be light and portable. (i travel a lot and live on a yacht) but these are pretty expensive. the skymax is light breaks down really small and looks quite tough, it's made from titanium, carbon fibre and aircraft ally and the best bit is with the top of the range moster 185 plus, with cnc anodised crank case, electric start, tacho, hour meter, carry case etc, etc it only weighs 21.5kg (+ the electric start) all this for just $8555 amazing! but he sells the basic moster package for $6750. to think, i was going to pay 12 or 13 grand for one of the others. i know what i am buying now.  http://www.backpackairsports.com/skymax-paramotors.html

Edited March 25, 2018 by huggy98

[adamjedgar]

I would also urge you to consider other en a/b wings too...as long as they are or have full reflex capability. Wings such as apco lift, macpara charger, etc.

I like the universal because unlike other wings, withs it long trimmer range the wing profile can  have almost all reflex removed enabling it to free fly in lowish winds. You will be lower than standard pg wings but it free flies quite ok and a lot better than other reflex ppg wings. I dont free fly mine anymore...but i used too.

In terms of the motor and frame,because you live on a boat portability should be a very high priority. For that reason you really need to compare your shortlist units with the nirvana rodeo. The rodeo is expensive, but wwight is more about the engine size than anything else. It packs up in a very impressive manner.

In terms of weight, almost all big name 200cc engines for example are going to see just the engine and exhaust alone weighing in at 19+kg. The exception is the nitro 200...however the first model of that engine had some cracking issues that i am certain are the result of excessive weightsaving design at the expense of strength and longevity...which was clearly a foolish choice at the time. My understanding is that in subsequent models these issues have been addressed. Weight is more about engine size than anything else.

Edited March 26, 2018 by adamjedgar

[huggy98]

5 hours ago, adamjedgar said:

I would also urge you to consider other en a/b wings too...as long as they are or have full reflex capability. Wings such as apco lift, macpara charger, etc.

I like the universal because unlike other wings, withs it long trimmer range the wing profile can  have almost all reflex removed enabling it to free fly in lowish winds. You will be lower than standard pg wings but it free flies quite ok and a lot better than other reflex ppg wings. I dont free fly mine anymore...but i used too.

In terms of the motor and frame,because you live on a boat portability should be a very high priority. For that reason you really need to compare your shortlist units with the nirvana rodeo. The rodeo is expensive, but wwight is more about the engine size than anything else. It packs up in a very impressive manner.

In terms of weight, almost all big name 200cc engines for example are going to see just the engine and exhaust alone weighing in at 19+kg. The exception is the nitro 200...however the first model of that engine had some cracking issues that i am certain are the result of excessive weightsaving design at the expense of strength and longevity...which was clearly a foolish choice at the time. My understanding is that in subsequent models these issues have been addressed. Weight is more about engine size than anything else.

Hi m8. just checked out the rodeo. looks like a nice strong, compact design, but is 27kg vs 22.5kg of the skymax. also has less thrust 65/70 vs 75 of the moster. last but not least is the price $11.900 vs $8555, that's $3345 difference.I don't want to make compromises because of price, but to be honest, i think the skymax looks like a better machine for me, and if i get all my gear from the same dealer, i'm quite sure ill get some discount on top of what to me look like the best prices i have seen. thanks, mark.

[simonhunny]

4 hours ago, huggy98 said:

Hi m8. just checked out the rodeo. looks like a nice strong, compact design, but is 27kg vs 22.5kg of the skymax. also has less thrust 65/70 vs 75 of the moster. last but not least is the price $11.900 vs $8555, that's $3345 difference.I don't want to make compromises because of price, but to be honest, i think the skymax looks like a better machine for me, and if i get all my gear from the same dealer, i'm quite sure ill get some discount on top of what to me look like the best prices i have seen. thanks, mark.

I agree, just about to take delivery of a skymax star frame dual start moster from Adrian, ticked all the boxes for me & excellent advice & service from Adrian

[Kran]

22 hours ago, huggy98 said:

Hi m8. just checked out the rodeo. looks like a nice strong, compact design, but is 27kg vs 22.5kg of the skymax. also has less thrust 65/70 vs 75 of the moster. last but not least is the price $11.900 vs $8555, that's $3345 difference.I don't want to make compromises because of price, but to be honest, i think the skymax looks like a better machine for me, and if i get all my gear from the same dealer, i'm quite sure ill get some discount on top of what to me look like the best prices i have seen. thanks, mark.

Adrian know's his stuff, he's a straight shooter, great to deal with, and is happy to help with after sale questions.

The Star is my first rig, so I can't make to big a judgement just yet, but yeah, I like it. The Vitto Moster 185 plus, cracks.

Went with the Dudek 1.1 and it hasn't failed to launch yet, and it's a nice progressive wing that you can grow with. Perfect for me.

Kran...

[adamjedgar]

Personally, i prefer, if one is going for a big engine (like the 185), to go for a 200. The moster doesnt produce more thrust than the simo mini 2 plus. That is a fabrication...see below,

Simo mini 2 plus weighs 15.4kg with starters and exhaust, produces 26hp and 78kg thrust at only 6800 rpm. At 7200rpm the simo 200 is still reving lower than 185 moster but it is now producing a whopping 86kg thrust...which is enormous.

The 185 moster weighs almost exactly the same as simo 200,  however develops 25hp at 7600 rpm (a lot higher reving than the 200 cc engine)

Big difference in performance...i have never been out climbed by a 185 moster.

I can also guarentee the 200 is going to be quieter (due to lower engine rpm), be more economical, and last a lot longer between rebuilds. The 200 could be detuned to further improve its longevity and still outperform a 185 (which is what i think nirvana have done).

Not saying the moster isnt a great engine...it is a great engine, just dont be fooled by bullshit sales pitch comparing a 200 with a 185. The bigger capacity is always going to win out.

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by adamjedgar

[huggy98]

20 minutes ago, adamjedgar said:

Personally, i prefer, if one is going for a big engine (like the 185), to go for a 200. The moster doesnt produce more thrust than the simo mini 2 plus. That is a fabrication...see below,

Simo mini 2 plus weighs 15.4kg with starters and exhaust, produces 26hp and 78kg thrust at only 6800 rpm. At 7200rpm the simo 200 is still reving lower than 185 moster but it is now producing a whopping 86kg thrust...which is enormous.

The 185 moster weighs almost exactly the same as simo 200,  however develops 25hp at 7600 rpm (a lot higher reving than the 200 cc engine)

Big difference in performance...i have never been out climbed by a 185 moster.

I can also guarentee the 200 is going to be quieter (due to lower engine rpm), be more economical, and last a lot longer between rebuilds. The 200 could be detuned to further improve its longevity and still outperform a 185 (which is what i think nirvana have done).

Not saying the moster isnt a great engine...it is a great engine, just dont be fooled by bullshit sales pitch comparing a 200 with a 185. The bigger capacity is always going to win out.

 

Thanks for the info m8. every bit counts. I'm still researching atm. I am going back to the uk before i return to Oz and my m8 is learning atm and it would be good to fly with him, so i might get the zenith. i can get it a lot cheaper in the uk.

[adamjedgar]

Try to find a decent second hand unit...there are plenty around. Just make sure you buy a decent brand and you will be ok. Basic engine rebuilds are not expensive so long as the bore, crank, and various bearings are ok.

To be honest, there is so much vibration on a 2 stroke engine, things are always breaking on them. Main thing is, whatever unit you buy, look after the prop and keep it well balanced...dont footdrag in dirt or sand. (i prefer carbon fibre props myself but timber ones take more of a beating before they fail).

 

Good luck with it.