fanman Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Of course people will look for generalisations, that is human nature. You agreed with a generalisation that I consider to be incorrect. You may not like that but I am more interested in safety and understanding. You highlight yourself how the manual is inadequate in explaining techniques to be employed flying these wings. The Fusion manual (like many manufacturers manuals) does not give satisfactory explanation to how reflex works to create a stable flying wing and this really should be addressed, especially in light of the fact that MCJ can never be available worldwide for seminars for everyone who buys one of his wings new or second hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 OK, So on a positive note, we may have Id'd that the manual is not ideal. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Well I'm pretty horrified that I'm being accused of misleading newcomers to the sport! I clearly mentioned correct me if I'm wrong not shoot me down in flames. I really understood that forums were here for open discussion on various topics related to the site. Obviously my thoughts on the relevant subject aren't too welcomed here and the last thing I'd ever want is to mislead newcomers or experienced people so I'm out of here!! Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t_andrews Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Do consider Justin (if you're still reading here) that your opinion is as valid as anyone's. You are correct it is an open forum, within the reasonable moderation so deftly applied by admins/mods. This is not a call for you to reconsider, rather for anyone reading this to appreciate the good that comes from this forum rather than the debate that some folks prefer over letting things lie. We are, after all human. We can be most accurately blamed for acting it on occasion. The validity of anyone's opinion doesn't make them right, or even reasonable, but it will most certainly adjust perception if only a tad. That's worth the pain in my opinion Others will disagree, just for fun, or because they understand something differently, or because they may be directed by a well intentioned goal. It's all good because it means the forum is working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon101 Posted March 13, 2010 Share Posted March 13, 2010 im now very confused at how to fly my very complicated, trimmer equipped, speed bar attached, reflex profile wing and when to brake it and when not to??????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Downloaded the manual and it contains even less info than the other manufacturers manuals! A lot of reading between the lines required for this one but there are some clues (and some differences in there). It would seem that there is no tip steering system as standard so turn would normally be induced by weightshift, brake input or stabilo line direct application. Page 5 suggests maillons level as the base setting for take off and landing. It seems that (like Dudek but unlike Paramania wings) there is some reflex profile at this setting. There would appear to be no reflex at the slowest trim setting. Ozone are not as trusting of the reflex profile like Dudek and Paramania as they are very quick to state that turbulent conditions require the wing to be slowed by pulling the trim in and transferring to active flying (they would appear to design reflex wings as migrating paraglider designers rather than dedicated paramotor designers perhaps). Were you aware of this before you bought the wing? Did you buy it new or second hand? Although it is not mentioned in the manual if it was my wing, when flying at faster trim settings I would use a combo of weightshift and stabilo line steering for directional control so as not to pull the reflex out of the profile. In fact this nicely highlights the huge differences between the different manufacturers attitudes to reflex very nicely and how they can't be generalised as a 'one size fits all' approach! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantheman Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 im now very confused at how to fly my very complicated, trimmer equipped, speed bar attached, reflex profile wing and when to brake it and when not to??????? If you are going too fast use the brakes, if you are going to slow use the trimmers, and if it's still too slow mix in some bar, but above all just have lots of fun and put some trust in your reflex wing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Not quite sure I understand what you're implying Dan. If you are going too fast use the brakes - If the wing is surging above you then yes but if you are at a consistent speed that is too fast then gently come off bar and then if further speed reduction required reduce trim. if you are going to slow use the trimmers - off the brakes and let out the trimmers. if it's still too slow mix in some bar - on some manufacturers wings you really want to get properly accelerated letting out trim before contemplating bar. have lots of fun - yes put some trust in your reflex wing - I would like to agree but the Ozone manual says to go to a considerably reduced reflex setting and fly actively! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dantheman Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Not quite sure I understand what you're implying Dan. Just trying to over simplify the settings although I was refering to a Revo not an Ozone, this does seem to ride out the bumps nicely "hands off" while on fast trim. I don't use brakes at all once trimmers are out, either turn using weightshift or tipsteering for a faster turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon101 Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 dan, i like your style, cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon101 Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 coming from the unpowered dark side of our force ( got a few hours under my belt there ) i'm quite used to applying speed bar for speed. i've never had trimmers before on a glider, let alone reflex technology. so im just glad we are all having this discussion. so please, without trying to hi-jack the heading of this subject im just trying to get to grips with what we are talking about and with the correct application of these devices used to change angles of attack and so on n on. I thank you all and good night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon101 Posted March 15, 2010 Share Posted March 15, 2010 Hi Fanman I got the glider as an ex demo wing second hand. i have always been an ozone fan and when this came up i jumped at it. i think you are right in saying they are coming from a free flying background with this wing and have tried to keep some of the characteristics of that but by adding reflex giving that stability under power. ozone say they recognize the benefits of reflex but its not the one and only factor in making a wing great fun to fly and at the same time super stable hands off speed on. i agree aswell now with weight shift and no brake input for trimmers fully out. now, would you fly with trimmers fully out and full speed bar on according to ozone manual? trimmers half out and full bar? i think its going to be fun trying all the different settings...... at considerable height me thinks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Simon, Ozone make some absolutely wonderful wings. I have no experience on the Roadster so I'm not best suited to comment. I suspect that it would be absolutley fine on bar and fast trim and it's just a case of Ozone being naturally pessimistic and living in fear of being sued!! They definitely are paraglider people first, paramotor people second, and hey, why not if that is their expertise. Fortunately it sounds like you have the right kind of background to work this out but it would be so much easier if they gave you a more informative manual to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon101 Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 I used the trimmers for the first time today and found them very easy to use. definitely helped to penetrate through some stronger winds. i was so tempted to go for the brakes a couple of times but resisted, kept the power on and flew straight through the turbulence just fine. gets a bit bumpy and it feels strange to not be flying actively, weird feeling, its more like being along for the ride! weight shifted ok though. next to hook up the speed bar and try that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommcb6016 Posted June 26, 2010 Share Posted June 26, 2010 I fitted my speed bar today after a flight last night where the wind speed picked up 10 miles from base, it would have come in quite usefull as I only just made it back before it got dark Apart from that it was my longest flight so far 1 hour 20 mins doing 28 miles around Banbury Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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