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Kobra Rocco ST230 Evo versus EC Extreme EC33


bholleran
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I am in the market for a new motor, I would love to get a 4 stroke but after a lot of looking around I dont think there is anything on the market big enough.

I am 125kg and will be flying a Dudek Nucleon 34. All up weight in the region of 170kg ish

I currently fly on a M21Y engine on a 125 prop. This is ok and works fairly well but I am using more fuel than I would like (approx 5 ltr per hour on a Gin Bolero iii)

I am sure that the Vittorazi Monster or the Simonini Mini 2 engine would have enough power. However I feel that if I go up another engine size that I will get better fuel economy as I will be crusing at less throttle. Despite the engine being a little heavier.

I also like the bulldog spirit but as I understand it, there is no low hang point version available. Although it did look lovely when I saw it.

That leaves me with

1. Kobra Rocco ST230 Evo

2. EC Extreme EC33

Has anyone flown both?

Experience of either?

Thanks

Barry

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Hi Barry,

As you know I'm about 105kg so not far off your weight, and I also started with an M21Y and classic paraglider which was adequate, but not really enough for a faster reflex wing. The Corsair engines (including black devil) are notoriously thirsty. Next was a Walkerjet F200 which was a great machine with plenty of power but not very involving to fly (it felt more like being a passenger).

I narrowed my choice of new motor to the same as you, and checked out the EC Extreme last year at the St. Hilaire festival. The frame is very strong but nice & light, although I didn't choose it because of the fixed hang points. The Vitorazzi Moster is a good engine and much lighter, but doesn't have the same reserve of power for your weight.

As the first (and probably only) UK owner of a Kobra ST 230 I can tell you the build quality is simply superb, with bronze bushes on the billet alloy pivot arms and incredibly strong stainless steel frame & cage. Very comfortable harness and seat, with big usefull side pockets, underseat reserve mount and wing bag / tool compartment.

Power is amazing (claimed thrust of 110kg) but whatever the actual figure it gets you off the ground in just a few steps. I never climb on full throttle except when the Nucleon is on full speed bar, which still gives a good rate of climb. Economy is superb, with just over 3 litres per hour at a neutral trim cruise, 3.5 on fast trim and slightly more when playing around with lots of power turns, climb outs etc.

Like everything there are some negatives. It is very heavy (possibly heavier than a bailey 4 stroke) but this is only an issue when lifting it or getting up off the floor. Once standing with it on your back it is comfortable and well designed so you don't notice the weight too much. The straps & buckles are a bit fussy, but very secure, and although there are lots of things to adjust it does give you a perfect custom fit and handling when you get them set correctly. It took me a few flights to sort everything even though it seemed fine in a static hang test.

It sits high on your back so very easy to run with, but can be a struggle to get fully seated in the harness after take off. I sorted this by adding a paragliding foot stirrup which I would strongly recommend. There is some counter rotation (torque) of the cage when going to full power for launch etc which can cause a wobble in flight if you are heavy handed, but this is true of any powerful engine and stops the moment you ease off. Amazingly there is zero torque steer in flight, it goes perfectly straight with a barely perceptible right drift on max power which is easy to correct with weight shift (or the TEA on the Nucleon), but you never really need max power so not an issue !

It handles heavy turbulence brilliantly - you feel what the wing is doing and the pivot arms move up & down, but you don't get thrown about like with the fixed hang point Walkerjet (Flat Top etc...) so it feels much better - more stable and cmfortable.

I've had superb customer service from Kobra with just a couple of small problems in approx 50 flying hours. The lower harness attaches to the frame with little webbing straps stitched on. These ripped off after a heavy landing so I replaced them with much heavier duty ones, stitched through to the other side - Kobra have modified these now, as they were only really adequate for the smaller models in their range. The charging regulator had to be replaced after one of the connecting wires snapped off the spade terminal, and Simonini recalled the motor to modify the crank / con rod bearing.

I guess these things happen with early models but Kobra have taken the feedback and made improvements to the harness etc so I wouldn't worry unduly as they certainly honour their warranty. I don't think any paramotor design is truly 100% perfect and there are even fewer choices for 100+kg pilots, but in my opinion the Kobra is still about the best (if a few kg's extra weight is not a problem).

:wingover:

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Thanks Alan for the reply.

I have looked and strugled to find any more information on the Rocco. In particular the distance between the swing arms and the length of the lap belt. i.e. the circumfrance from the seat back.

i.e. will it go around my middle, I have tried a parajet with a large harness and it was ok when sitting down but it nearly cut me in half when I stood up.

Any chance you could measure it for me.

Thanks

Barry

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Hi Barry.

You do need something quieter. Last time I heard you takeoff and fly away I could hear you for ages. I had a test flight with the new bailey V5 lightweight 4 stroke today. Beauuuutiful bit of kit and felt just as powerful as my V4 machine, but at least 9kg lighter. You should see if you can have a go with it sometime.I I really think it would work for you. It has the torquey sort of power you need and can run full power without deafening everyone. He has a nice takeoff right there where they make them. It is £5500 + a few titanium options, and the first batch isn,t finished quite yet and is all sold out anyway so it would be a bit of a wait, but I can only say I now really want one for myself. The pull start is ridiculously easy compared to any two stroke I have tried and the quality of the machine is second to none. I spent ages bending Paul Baileys ear and going thru all the bits of the engine on the parts shelf. It really is generation ahead of anything else out there . I believe Michelle Carnet gets the first one of the line so you should be able to see one down this way soon.

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Hi Barry.

You do need something quieter. Last time I heard you takeoff and fly away I could hear you for ages. I had a test flight with the new bailey V5 lightweight 4 stroke today. Beauuuutiful bit of kit and felt just as powerful as my V4 machine, but at least 9kg lighter. You should see if you can have a go with it sometime.I I really think it would work for you. It has the torquey sort of power you need and can run full power without deafening everyone. He has a nice takeoff right there where they make them. It is £5500 + a few titanium options, and the first batch isn,t finished quite yet and is all sold out anyway so it would be a bit of a wait, but I can only say I now really want one for myself. The pull start is ridiculously easy compared to any two stroke I have tried and the quality of the machine is second to none. I spent ages bending Paul Baileys ear and going thru all the bits of the engine on the parts shelf. It really is generation ahead of anything else out there . I believe Michelle Carnet gets the first one of the line so you should be able to see one down this way soon.

Hi Seymore,

One of my main requirments when I started looking for a new motor was to get a quieter one. This was mainly down to comments from you and Morgy and the noise sensitivity of your site. I spent about an hour on the phone to Bailey today, in particular discussing the new engine.

The short version of the conversation was that the V4-200 version is slightly more powerfull than the new V5 version. (But the V5 is lighter) But all that said and done they did not believe that either motor would be powerfull enough for my weight. They suggested that the engine had been designed around a Max pilot weight of 100kg, and although I may well be able to use it. The climb rate and fuel economy would be so poor that it would not really be a smart option.

They do not have any plans at this time to release a larger engine, which brings me back to my problem. So I guess that by going for a very big engine and running it at a significantly lower number of revs should provide a motor that is overall quiter in normal operation.

I dont know if there is any sort of comparison site that shows the difference in volume from different motors.

I suppose that is actual measured db and percieved noise based on the exhaust tone?

Thanks

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Barry, the pivot arms on the Kobra have 41.5cm between them and the waist strap is approximately 30cm to the harness (that is where mine is set although it will extend a bit further and obviously curve outwards more in the middle).

I have a 38" waist and fairly modest beer belly. Being realistic if you are substantially wider then it could be a problem.

A Walkerjet F200 could be perfect for you. I found the harness to be massive and the waist strap sat 6" in front of my stomach - it is only there to maintain the bar separation. No problem getting in to the harness as it scoops you off the floor straight into the seat. Only 28kg complete with electric start and 27Hp engine !

http://www.walkerjet.cz/uk/rr200.html

Dare I say it :roll: but the copycat Flat Top could also be an option, and Fresh Breeze do some big harnesses (for the German market)

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Or perhaps a Bulldog. They do a Simonini Evo version dont they ? Moster 185 might fly you too Barry. But probably better climb rate with the Simmo mini 2 plus or the powerfull Evo.

I really liked the look of the prototype one that I seen, but as I understand it they only do a high hang point version.

I would really prefer a low hang point machine if possible but it is definitely worth considering.

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I've never flown high hangpoint motors but am likely to soon, just to make the comparison. Are you a tall 125 or a wide one Barry.? I dont mean to be rude of course, but the rigid bars on the Flat Top are only 44 cms wide . I was 105 kg a couple of years ago and felt well contained. I fly the wider bars now,(54 cms) and weigh 90 k, and tis a bit like sitting on a park bench. Probably take all but the larger wings out of cert at that width, but the turning's fun if you dont mind being shaken up in the bumpy stuff. You have to grow a thick skin to fly one too, cos of the fella that makes em :x

Try one or 2 Barry. Sounds like that cobra of Alan's might suit you. I personally wouldn't go for an F 200 though. I had one before and know what happens to them. I had a call from the guy that bought mine and others have been shouting for help on forums when they go wrong at relatively low hours.

Dave

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[youtubevideo]

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Our Bulldog Simonini Evo is not ready for release yet as we are getting a new exhaust designed as the original posse’s problems with fitment and weight at 5kg!

I will ballast myself from 98kg to 120kg and test the Moster to see if it will fly the 34 through all its speed range including bar and will report back with the findings.

I did ballast myself to 115kg recently to see if the Polini Thor could cope with a first flight for one of our pilots. Although I was able to climb out well and even back of the rpm a little it defiantly won’t handle speed bar as I can only just achieve this at 98kg.

Although the Bulldog is a semi high hang point it’s fully weight-shift-able with the slider arms and allows for a fuller longer flare when landing with increased stability in flight when compared to a lower style machine, which I believe compliments the modern reflex wing.

Clive

http://www.bulldogparamotors.co.uk

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