Where is your reserve mounted?

[Guest]

My PAP has the largest Metamorfosi Conar (22) reserve mounted in a PAP container behind my head. While this makes for a very neat installation I am looking at moving to a front mounted location.

My reasons for this are:

1. under high g situations it might not be possible to lift your hands behind your head to reach the handle.

2. a guy has recently done some tests with his thrust tester and found that, on average, mounting a reserve in this location loses approx 1.5kg of static thrust due to blanking.

3. my reserve weighs 3.12kg not including the weight of the container. Lifting the motor unit in and out of my car is starting to hurt my back so if I can remove nearly 4kg of that weight it would be very beneficial.

4. I have been using a System X front mounted map bag this summer which also carries my GPS and alti-vario. When I go onto full speedbar it flicks up and smacks me in the face! A front mounted reserve would let me mount my instruments on something that weighs itself down.

What I am struggling to resolve is how to run the reserve bridles from a front location to the attachment points on the harness which are on the shoulder straps located around the collar bone area. If you are currently using a front mounted reserve (or have any ideas generally) could you advise.

Regards

Ian

[Guest]

Im quite intrigued by the criticism of the PAP head mounted reserves; looking at it from a slightly different angle; I dont really believe that the high G situation is worth worrying about when you consider that fast jet pilots reach up with both hands and pull down a protective cover over their helmets as part of the ejection technique; and those guys pull more G's than any emergency in a PPG could produce?

Only my thoughts; hope you find a bad back friendly solution!

Steve

[martinbg]

v23nb wrote

>My reasons for this are:

>1. under high g situations it might not be possible to lift your hands behind

>your head to reach the handle.

Ian

you are correct in your statement.

This is exactly the reason why no new ejection seats have the overhead handles as the older ones did (if they are there it is only as a last ditch back up). The main handle is between your legs. Even at 2g you will initially struggle to move your arms, now imagine moving them at 8g.

Martin

[Guest]

Steve, I think you'll find that these days the handle is now located between the pilots legs for this very reason. The handles you're referring to are from a bygone era afaik.

EDIT: oops posted at the same time as Martins reply!

[Guest]

Front mounted reserves need to have a velcro "tube" along the side of the harness up to the reserve hang points. It needs to route the bridles outside the speed system and any other strapping or attachments. The tube rips open progressively as the reserve deploys. You might need extensions on the bridle.

[Guest]

Does anyone sell a suitable velcro tube? Also, one of my concerns is how the suddenly tightening bridles are going to pull on the body during deployment. If you run the bridles down one side your arm is now going to be over the top. If, say, the bridles ran rearwards (from a shoulder strap mounting) to the frame and then down the starboard side of the harness then there could be issues if you deployed while falling right hand side downwards as the bridle would probably loop round you neck! Eek!

[Guest]

I suppose thats perhaps another reason for the PAP head mounted system then?

(Safer simpler harness connection, less to go wrong get misrouted?????) Dont know Im only guessing.

Re the everything tightening up suddenly, Ive only done 3 parachute descents, but I dont think there's much getting away from the sudden tightening up scenario!!!!

[Guest]

Just been on the Martin Baker website and the face screen type trigger (over the head like PAP) stopped at the MK7 (which was fitted to F4 Phantoms) so yes its been replaced by the in between the legs handle system!! Theyre now on the MK16 version it says!!

An F4 must be a hell of a thing to eject from compared to a throwing a 'chute on a PPG, but hopefully Ill never find out LOL..

http://www.martin-baker.com/getdoc/3fb8 ... Mk--9.aspx

[pete_b]

You will pull a lot more Gs in a fixed wing than with your paramotor.

I have (and a lot of others ) been in a full face down spiral and you can still

use the brakes ok so there would be little difference in reaching the reserve.

And remember with all that adrenalin rush you will be stronger.

This is only my take on it as I am happy with it where it is

as its out of the way and

I don't have to think about connecting it back up every flight.

If you feel happier with it on your lap/side then there will be a way to do it,How do they fit them on the parajets??

Pete b

[Guest]

Front was the only option I was considering as I wanted it to be completely removable. I'm starting to get really itchy about the bridles being round the side due to the strangling issue. Although I really wanted to remove the weight issue I think I'll probably end up leaving it where it is. I guess it's always a good idea to have a good think about your set up though.

[Guest]

Myself, and many many others.....

Lap mounted deployment bag, 1.5 meter Y bridle attached to Crabs. ( or high hang point harness mounts via the valcro tube on the harness )

SW

[Guest]

Thanks Simon, I thought about attachment to the carabiners but in a discussion with carabiner suppliers (I am awaiting delivery of a new set of Austrialpin powerflys) they don't consider the 'biners to be suitable for the snatch load of a reserve deployment. The attachment to the shoulder position (after running the bridle rearwards and then round the side) is worrying for the reasons mentioned previously.

Edited December 11, 2007 by Guest

[Guest]

You seem to have missed a couple of important points.

firstly - you should not be trying to detach the bridle from the reserve at the end of every days flying. It's important to have the attachment point with no free play , which will result in a shock loading, and possibly failure. Even with the front mount it will have to be permanently attached.

secondly - The most important consideration with position is being able to see the handle, and to regularly practising locating the chute during flight. I'm not convinced that in an emergency you would be able to find the handle from behind your head. The problem is not the G Force but the disoriantation ( Yes I have had a mid air, when another pilot decided to drop in on me ) You don't have time to think, you just react.

I use the same chute. If you need some help or assistance try talking to Avian Hangliding, based in Bradwell Derbyshire. He's the UK importer of Metamorfosi, and has a workshop to manufacture any attachments and bridles you need. he's one of the few suppliers that is a flyer and very keen to help anyone with their safety equipment. When my motor arrives it will be going to him for for the reserve to be fitted.having discussed with him my requirements

[Guest]

Thanks Pete. very good point about it not being detachable. In that case I wonder how many people with front mounts do detach each time between flying.

[Guest]

Me for one, and a LOT of others.

I see no problem with Attaching your Reserve as a part of your pre flight drills.

I like the fact that it is a seperate unit.

It is all personal pref at the end of the day I suppose, but most of the Lambourn lot use a front mounted detachable 'Flight Deck' Type reserve to my knowledge.

SW

[Guest]

It's the way I'd like to go but I think I need to get a bit more feedback from other krab suppliers. Maybe the one I spoke to is a bit overly cautious perhaps.

[Guest]

Hi Simon. I agree with you , It's a matter of preference. whats most important is that you can find it, first time every time. It's also important to ensure that the bridle is tight up to the mallion to minimise any shock load at this point during deployment. Do you tape the bridle every time you attach the reserve ? .

If of interest I will be using a Double "Y" bridle attachment onto the harness, which should give a second line attachment as a fail safe at the point of most shock load. A bit belt and brasses but I like to feel safe !!

[Guest]

Pete, where are you attaching to? You haven't stated that yet in your posts. What do you think about using the black rubber bands similar to those used on the lines oconnected to the maillons at the top of the risers to hold the reserve maillons to the crabs?

[Guest]

The bridles are attached to the harness attachment points with mallions and bound with spinnaker tape to eliminate the snatch point. Spinnaker tape is similar to the tape used to repair your wing. It's available from most Yacht chandlers in tape form. cut it into a thin strip and bind the connection. Do similarly at the other end of the bridle.

I use a Metamorfosi deployment bag, which has tabs each side for sewing onto the harness. i haven't finalised this yet. I'll do that when I get my motor. i think you will have to sit in the harness and decide where the reserve sits best.

One word of caution, a friend of mine fitted his to tightly, and found when he came into land after fitting it , he could not get out of his harness. The attachments for the deployment bag do not need to be very strong as they only carry the weight of the reserve .

Hope this is of some help. I'll be able to give you some more ideas when mine has been fitted.

[Guest]

Velcroed tubes are not just to tidy away the bridle, they are integral to the deployment, progressively releasing the bridle and reorienting the pliot during the deployment. They need careful thought in their design and location.

Pondering on I think that....

Carabiners are not suitable for attaching reserves, they are not designed for the shock load. We are starting to gather statistics of broken (fatigued) carabiners; (3 have now failed in use). If attaching at the harness to wing attachment loop better to use a separate mailon but spanner it tight at every rigging. also these need to be taped away from the carabiner to avoid metal to metal abrasion. Much better to attach reserve at the shoulders as this puts you into PLF position rather than suspended at the waist and so possibly not vertical at impact.

With a front mounted reserve the bridle should be attached to the harness in a sewn-on tube that opens along its length with velcro. (BMX bikes used to have these to cover the foam on the cross bar and handle bars). It is v important to keep the bridle secured in this way not loose by the side so that during deployment the tube releases the bridle progressively.

Even if you are leaning right over to one side you will have forward momentum and your rearwards throw will ensure the deployment is behind you not above you. A front to back throw is the strongest for many people. A good throw results in faster fuller deployment. Even if it deploys directly above you the velcro tube will ensure the bridle is fed round you not looping past your neck. The velcro needs to be strong enough to exert enough force to turn you away from the bridle. Ususally they use half inch velcro, sometimes three quarter. Some use quarter but I think this releases too easily.

The parajet (my model) has a short velcro tube down to the side but it does not come forward to the front so this needs to be added by you (me)

The speed system of course must be fitted inside the bridle loop so you have to leave a the velcro tube a bit short of the front of the harness and make sure the speed line does not rub the bridle in use.

Sometimes the bridle is not long enough and you need an extension. Then you need to make sure that the wing and the deployed reserve are not at the same distance from the harness or the wing can interfere with the deployed chute. (you need to check this anyway but most unextended bridles and reserve lines are shorter than most wing line sets).

I also think that paramotor harness design lags a long way behind PG harness design in this regard. there is a lot of data and a lot of design evolution in PG harness reserve mounting that is not being draw on.

[Guest]

Thank you. Probably one of the most important and best replies ever received.