Guest Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 (edited) Please keep this thread for factual posts as an information source and use other threads for discussions and rants. (maybe make this a sticky?) The proposed introduction of Mode S transponders for all UK aircraft As some of you may be aware, the UK CAA is carrying out a consultation into making it compulsory for ALL aircraft to carry a working Mode S transponder when flying in airspace currently requiring the carriage of transponders. The change is due for implementation in 2008. This has now been Implemented. All aircraft that operate within airspace that currently requires transponder carriage need to now equip with Mode S. That was Pahse 1. Phase two consultation is now underway to decide between 4 options, the chosen one to be implemented by march 2009. The options are Option 1: Mandate the carriage and operation of Mode S transponders on all aircraft operating within controlled airspace of classification A to E. The aim of this is to increase the number of aircraft that are electronically visible to ATC radars and safety systems, such as TCAS and Short-Term Conflict Alert, supporting the management of controlled airspace. Option 2: Implement a formal process for applications for ‘Transponder Mandatory Zones’ (TMZs) outside of controlled airspace. The CAA already has regulatory powers to establish TMZs, which effectively allow specific, notified volumes of airspace to be created where all aircraft have to carry and operate transponders. To date, these powers have been used sparingly and the only current TMZ in the UK is in the Scottish TMA between 6,000 feet and Flight Level 100. Greater use of TMZs may be required to address specific safety and airspace efficiency issues such as in airspace with high levels of infringements. Option 3: Include gliders within in the SSR transponder carriage regulations. The aim is to improve the electronic visibility of gliders by bringing them into line with the transponder carriage requirements that all other aircraft have to meet. Transponders would not be required on gliders flying below Flight Level 100 outside of controlled airspace and TMZs. The CAA recognises that the equipage of gliders with transponders still presents challenges, particularly with installation, weight, electrical supply and cost. Existing regulatory provisions and specific arrangements could provide means for enabling access to some volumes of mandatory transponder carriage airspace where the risks of nondetection by safety systems can be mitigated. In addition, specific areas of airspace between Flight Level 100 and 195 could be identified as ‘non-transponder airspace’ for gliding activity. Option 4: Mandate the carriage and operation of Mode S transponders on all powered aircraft conducting international flights. Current international standards specify the need for all powered aircraft conducting international flights to carry and operate pressure-altitude reporting SSR transponders, irrespective of the airspace in which they operate. The against argument for our sport is being put forward by the BHPA on our behalf. You may wish to voice your disagreement with their argument and can do so by submitting a reasoned individual argument to the CAA. There is guidance on how to do this, for or against, in the following links. The CAA Mode S Transponder story so far..... CAA Mode S Transponder Phase 2 Consultation Final Response - June 2008 CAA Mode S Transponder Phase 2 Consultation Draft Response v2 - May 2008 CAA Mode S Transponder Phase 2 Consultation Summary - April 2008 CAA Mode S Transponder Phase 2 Consultation - March 2008 CAA Mode S Transponder Phase 2 Consultation - January 2008 CAA Mode S Transponder Consultation - 2006 The BHPA have been very active in opposing mandatory transponders for PPG. The CAA Mode S Phase 2 Transponder Consultation has now closed, and the final response of the BHPA Airspace Panel can be downloaded here. The CAA propose three options. The procedure is now at the stage (August 2008) where they are deciding which option of the three to implement and a consultation period is now open. See it here in outline. The CAA have issued a CD with their proposals explained. I will try and get this available for download or at least post extracts on this thread to give you a balanced presentation of the debate. If I have any of this factually incorrect or you detect any bias please say so and I will try to make this thread as even handed as possible. edited 13:33 1-9-57 Edited September 1, 2008 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Francis, I know you want to keep this area clear but....... Facts? Why present the BHPA line and call it a 'fact'. My comments on the other thread on this subject were referenced to the CAA document below. Francis: The proposed introduction of Mode S transponders for all UK aircraft From the PDF In Focus - Phase 2 proposals "It should be noted from the outset that, unlike the 2006 consultation, this consultation on the second phase ofMode S expansion does not propose that all aircraft should carry Mode S transponders in all UK airspace." This is part of the systematic misinformation that the BHPA are trotting out. Let's deal with facts. The BHPA make some good points in their final reply but weaken their case with insults, mild hysteria and misinformation every bit as bad as that they accuse the CAA of using. I guess that is called politics. Access to controlled airspace by gliders and other GA aircraft permitted by LOA is not a right. Francis: the UK CAA is carrying out a consultation into making it compulsory for ALL aircraft to carry a working Mode S transponder when flying anywhere in the UK. Not so, we have dealt with the 'all' now the 'anywhere' - see the graphic. Try descending into Aberdeen IMC knowing that there may well be gliders occupying the area that you are boring through at 300 knots. Nice, GRP plastic gliders with a radar signature close to that of a seagul with a fishing weight in its gut. Shit happens...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 the bhpa line is a fact. it is what the bhpa are doing on behalf of ppg in the uk. ppg should know that they are doing this and either support or oppose it. pilots cant do that if they dont know mode s is being opposed on their behalf. i also posted a link to the document you posted. It is a fact that that is how the CAA are presenting one of their options. However option 3 states that All aircraft will carry them. We are at a stage where we are being consulted on which of the three options that have come out of phase 1 will be implemented. my rants are confined to the tongue in cheek thread. I do not present any arguments in this one but merely post links to the available information. Your post in this thread seems to be pursuing an argument in favour, something I hoped would be continued on the other thread. my response to that argument can be found there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Errrr, I have tried to show that the BHPA line as presented is not a fact. It is refuted by the evidence given. On the 'side' of the CAA. No, I am just trying to present the other side of the argument. There are two sides to the story and the view from within is often lost in these places. It is fun arguing the toss as well at 0530 in the morning while waiting for your breakfast. Option 3 'All aircraft?' Transponders would not be required on gliders flying below Flight Level 100 outside of controlled airspace andTMZs. Word has it we are classed as 'gliders'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 I did not mean to present the BHPA argument as an argument but to inform pilots that this is what the BHPA are saying ON YOUR BEHALF. It is quite likely (perhaps in your own case?) that individual PPG pilots are unaware that the anti argument is being presented in their name when they actually are in favour? So the CAA will be left thinking that all PPG pilots are anti when clearly that is not the case. The BGA also argue similarly and so do the BMAA? and the GA lobby? You were right to ask me to correct my initial preamble as it did not read correctly. I have done this now. replacing the phrase" All UK airspace" (BHPA misinformation) with the phrase "in airspace currently requiring the carriage of transponders" which is what I meant. (I was lazy borrowing their preamble and editing it ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 On my behalf?? I dont want the BHPA to say anything on my behalf thanks I am not a member. I actually think that if someone tells me that I have to pay £200 for a box that I have to fit to my motor to carry on flying it I will just go out and buy it and carry on flying. Helmet on a motorcycle all over again.......... SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 On my behalf??I dont want the BHPA to say anything on my behalf thanks I am not a member. I actually think that if someone tells me that I have to pay £200 for a box that I have to fit to my motor to carry on flying it I will just go out and buy it and carry on flying. Helmet on a motorcycle all over again.......... SW My point is BUT THEY ARE. so if you disagree and think Mode S is a Good Idea, or if PMC collectively think it is a good idea then you/they/we need to make representation to that effect. I personally am entirely with you, if I have to pay an extra £200 flying tax , I will have to pay it or evade it but it will be what it will be. "Helmets on motorcycles"........ spot on!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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