Paramotor / freeflight wing with the most flexibility?

[fuzzybabybunny]

I travel a lot and only have space for one wing, so I want to get as close to a "do everything" wing as I can get. In skiing we call it a one-ski-quiver, that one pair of skis that allows you to have a blast doing practically everything, but of course doesn't truly excel at any one thing. I'm wondering if such a wing exists.

My current wing is a beginner Gin Pegasus 26 and while I'll most likely fly this for quite some time since I'm a beginner, I'd like to start doing research on wings I can eventually upgrade to.

The Pegasus is really only flyable at 10kt or below. 14kt is the absolute max for launching (any kind of gust makes it really sketchy really quick) and then you don't really go anywhere when you get off the ground. 

Is there a wing out there than can do both freeflight and paramotoring and can operate in a very wide range of wind speeds while still being foot-launchable? We've been having *weeks* of 15kt winds and I'm kind of jealous hearing of other people on the forums flying in winds up to ~20kt.

For instance I've heard that the Ozone Zero is very popular and can do both freefly and PPG while being able to tackle a very wide range of wind speeds. It can even be used for speedriding on the snow...

Edited July 26, 2016 by fuzzybabybunny

[nicosangeli]

I fly PG/PPG and have a zero 17 and BGD base M/L for PG and spider 26/sirocco 24 for PPG.

I can fly in most conditions .

the problem with flying in strong winds seems to be the gust.

very rare do I find laminar strong winds which make flying small wings tricky.

having said that,I would suggest a light version PPG wing like a spider/sirocco with trims which have a good glide with trims closed and safe penetration with trims open.

hope this helps. 

[fuzzybabybunny]

On 7/26/2016 at 5:29 AM, nicosangeli said:

I fly PG/PPG and have a zero 17 and BGD base M/L for PG and spider 26/sirocco 24 for PPG.

I can fly in most conditions .

the problem with flying in strong winds seems to be the gust.

very rare do I find laminar strong winds which make flying small wings tricky.

having said that,I would suggest a light version PPG wing like a spider/sirocco with trims which have a good glide with trims closed and safe penetration with trims open.

hope this helps. 

I've been having a LOT of 15kt wind days recently, and spending so much time on the ground hurts, which is why I want to look at non-reflex wings that can do both PPG and PG anywhere from, say, 0-20kt? But what I'm gathering is that this isn't really possible - I would *have* to get two separate wings for this. Does this sound right?

When you say strong winds, how strong exactly are we talking?

Currently my Gin Pegasus is only capable of PPG in 0-11 kt winds and maybe 0-14 kt winds for freeflying. But it does both fairly well.

Is that normal for a non-reflexed PPG wing? To do both freeflying and PPG well? Or is there something about non-reflexed PPG wings that make them "clunkier" for freeflying?

 

[nicosangeli]

the problem is mostly on launch.

if I try to launch a wing without trimmers slightly open,it hangs back in the window and pulls back .

even with the zero 17m which has trimmers,I always open trimmers about 1/3 for launch and then close accordingly.

I won't try to takeoff in anything over 30/35 km/h.!

thats kitesurfing time...!

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Ok, so to summarize:

- For a beginner, a non-reflex EN-A / EN-B paragliding wing with trimmers and PPG mounting points on the risers will be fine for *both* PPG and for learning how to do freeflying XC thermaling and such. It'll just be slow.

But for an intermediate to advanced pilot who wants a faster wing, you need to start choosing between PPG-only or freefly-only wings.

- A reflex PPG wing will be amazing at PPG but really suck at any kind of freeflying except maybe ridge soaring. You definitely wouldn't want to use a reflex wing for thermaling or freeflying XC, *even with the reflex disabled*, right? They simply don't glide as much and dive more in turns.

- A good EN-B+ freeflying wing will not have trimmers, will not have PPG mounting points, and will still be slow on PPG.

Does this sound about right?

[nicosangeli]

I wouldn't agree with all that you said but wouldn't disagree either since size of wing plays a big role in performance and certification.

also another thing to consider which has nothing to do with performance or safety is ease of handling on takeoff.

new design PPG wings are very easy to launch in B certification which is very important to PPG pilots compared to PG wings which can be very finicky to launch.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Ok, what about wings of the same size? I'm 75kg so a ~26m2 wing.

Specifically, I'm looking at the 

Gin Pegasus - non-reflex, has trimmers, EN-A

Ozone Buzz PWR - non-reflex, has trimmers, EN-B

Spyder - lightweight version of the Roadster, reflex

1. For a beginner looking to practice more freeflying, thermaling, and PPG (I've already got my license for both but need to get more hours on both) which one would be good? Certainly not the Spyder, right?

2. Just curious - what would the speed difference be between the Spyder in full reflex versus the Buzz PWR / Pegasus with trimmers on? Like 5kph faster? Or 15kph+ faster?

Edited August 4, 2016 by fuzzybabybunny

[nicosangeli]

i have experience only with spider and R2 so cannot compare with the other wings.

from what i gathered though,a dudek universal or buzz power would seem ideal.!

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Ok, so this is what I've gathered after talking to a lot of other people:

The gist of what's possible with current technology is that there is no wing that's fast on a paramotor but also good enough for freeflying other than ridge soaring, correct? Making a wing faster on a paramotor necessitates making the wing's glide and sink worse, which necessitates making the wing unsuitable for freeflying other than ridge soaring. 

So in the end. if you can only have one wing, you just have to be honest with yourself and pick the activity you'll be doing the most of.

So I guess to be perfectly honest:

- I say I want to thermal and do XC free flights, but honestly I'll probably only thermal during thermal clinics and never thermal otherwise due to the logistical challenges that I can't be bothered to coordinate.

- I'm perfectly happy ridge soaring. 

- I want to get more airtime. That's my main goal - to fly as much as I can. With that in mind, due to the motor giving me so many more options to fly while I'm traveling, I should just focus on getting a good PPG reflex wing and forget about the PG wings with trimmers with better glide and freefly ability.

Everyone agree?

[skybound]

There is one that does it quite well, although having a truly dedicated wing for each discipline would be my option.

But if I could only have one wing to do both, then it would be the Dudek Universal.   http://www.dudek.eu/en/paramotor-ppg/universal.html

[andrei_nath]

Good thinking fuzzy. Enjoy ppg long xc with a fast reflex wing. Readge soaring is not free flying... i call it emergency flying when you don.t have any option but you really need to fly. Free flying means coaring thermals and jumping from valley to valley or going over flatlands.

You will not go wrong is you go for a free fling dedicated wing also... most important... do one but do it good. From feeling point of view my opinion is that ppg has nothing to do with free flying.

[custom-vince]

I would have thought the Spyder is one of the better choices. Trims in, non reflex paraglider made of lighter fabric. Trims out, its reflex. Which can be handy even when paragliding on a windy launch. I found it easier to launch a bigger reflex wing with trims out than a 17m speed wing which felt like a bucket of wind due to the very fat leading edge.

Also got to question yourself which you do more of and accept that and lean towards a wing which favours that side of the sport.

 

I would happily paramotor with a paragliding wing but reality is I fly ppg 90% of the time, (99% this year), so I will just paraglide trims in on what ever I have. A wing is a wing after all, they will all do both and more.

[aljken]

Whatever you get is a compromise. However I would point out you can retrofit a trimmers to many paraglider wings, and use speedbar too. I did this with a U-Turn Blacklight which is a high end B wing suitable for XC paragliding. I flew with it under power many times and it  worked so much better with the trimmers fully open. However it definitely was not as fun as a reflex wing - it felt like dragging a sail through water whenever I throttled up.

It was obviously a compromise and now have a dedicated XC free flight wing, and a reflex paramotor wing. The paramotor wing would be useless for XC, but still very fast and fun for high wind ridge soaring. When it is light the paramotor wing just wants to go down though.

In terms of size  and a free flight wing. Chose whatever wing size suits you for free flight, then just fly it under power. yes you'll be massively over the weight range, but it will still seem slow.

I think you are right, if you are more into paramotoring then get a reflex wing and go ridge soaring when you are getting desperate.