andy202020

I guess the question is not whether it costs lots to CNC nice shapes out of solid blocks of aero grade alluminium but rather what do you gain as a customer? I dont know a lot about paramotors, but I have some experience in making technology products. And making a product in a low volume luxury market that has "good value" attached often means you sell less for less money as everyone boasts about how much better their superlite is for twice the price. I can see more power is useful if you are larger, reliability, quietness, weight, being able to easily take it apart for transport. But when it comes to shaped aerofoil sections in the frame when there is a great big shaggy pilot sitting in front of it I start to lose my understanding of the benefits. What I do know is that in a sport where a large number of people will pay to have the best...you want to make the top end product and charge accordingly. People will pay. If you make a product that is a pound heavier and finished in a cheaper fashion and offer something cheaper with less margin, you usually find you dont sell any more. In fact the guy with the bells on sells more as there is a perceived value and mysticism that surrounds this top end kit. The other trick is to sell manufacturer recon units for nearly the same money as new ones. Makes people think that the kit holds it value and keeps up the perceived value. Makes people buy new and feel they will be making an investment. If you know a lot about paramotors I guess you can pick up a lot of kit cheaply on ebay, but you really need to know your stuff. From people who have started and given up with twisted ankles! Andy I have hurt my knee before I even started.....

Thanks morgy, aquatix Just to reframe where this is coming from aquatix you said "Some offer subsidised training if you also purchase equipment through them, or cheaper combined costs for training abroad. Some charge slightly different fees due to size, facilities costs or other reasons even though the syllabus is the same. I don't see a problem with that. Freedom of choice." I was decided to train at a school, but the price advertised was not honored, and when I asked why part of the response was that BHPA training was worth so much more that other training and should be much more up to £1700. Hence the foundation of much of the BHPA research and how I began to see a pattern. Bad news always travels faster and longer, so I'm not suggesting this is the general scene...hence why I have asked the questions and really pleased and impressed with the time people have taken on here to reply. Insurance, yes car insurance will not cover you if you are doing something illegal. But it also may not cover you if you have a legal car with a modified exhaust and dont tell them, or you park on the road when you told them it was garaged. So for any insurance its important to understand what you are covered for, a civil complaint about noise for example may not be criminally illegal but there are plenty of people out there with the money and time to take you to court! Oh and I contacted BHPA via their advertised email to advise them their PPG cost was not correct, twice, with no reply. I think my head is pretty straight now though thanks to all these posts...many thanks every one. So...Paragliding, works on clubs (with their own hills with agreements), most clubs are BHPA so good to take their training for paragliding Paramotoring is more of a friendly gathering of like minded people and not officially networked. So you get good training (somewhere, perhaps with Simon!) and find likeminded people to fly with. Can you fly a paramotor into a meet/flyin without BHPA membership or other insurance? I'll catch up with Simon when he gets back and have a chat in person Thanks Andy

Thanks to everyone so far, this is really interesting and helps me understand. It also re-enforces some key issues I guess. Searching the internet I found a bunch of people saying they wanted to fly from another clubs site and were told they were not welcome, perhaps with the added suggestion that their training was not recognised. And the result was that many of the posters would say its public land and they will fly anyway. It seems the above issue compounds the problem. One thing PPL training does is drum into you the procedures and the massive consequences (often in the shape of the CAA taking your to court) of failing to abide. You MUST NOT bust airspace, or arrive at PPR sites without getting permission except in emergency. Flight rules (500ft etc) are either adhered to or you are likely to find yourself in court. So my expectation is that you look for a local club and you take advice, you use (perhaps pay them a token fee) a clubs site. The moment there is a conflict over who's training is worth anything you end up with a situation where some people feel they will fly anyway. I personally would not do that, but I can understand if you paid for a qualification, got lots of hours, then were told by clubs you were not welcome and your qualification was useless...I can understand them feeling they might fly anyway. I have been told several times that if I dont get BHPA training it will not be recognised. So progression then becomes starting from scratch if you want to move from paramotoring to paragliding I guess? I would suggest as an outsider, that BHPA trainers saying their training is worth more than non BHPA experienced schools (and respected trainers) does little to encourage everyone to standardise training under the BHPA. I want to do the right training. I want to do the best training. I dont want to be told (as I have been) that BHPA training should be more expensive because I would be wasting my money with a non BHPA school...because that feels like someone is twisting my arm Especially when the BHPA website says you can buy new equipment and get trained for £5,000 (you wouldnt even get new equipment for that) and their approved trainers are hiking training costs saying they are worth more. It seems to show that they are out of touch or that PPG is a tiny and insignificant part of their work. I want the BHPA to reply to my 2 emails instead of ignoring them too. Not a great way of making me feel the BHPA is working for members and prospective members. It seems that its clear that if I want to do paragliding I need a BHPA trainer? So what I still dont understand is what happens if you want to progress, perhaps do competitions. Not that I do...but does that require a BHPA qualification? Would they make you pay for training from the start again in the BHPA because they dont think your training was good enough outside? And the insurance issue...if someone sees you and doesnt like the noise of your engine, then complains to the CAA saying you were below 500ft over their town (even if you were not), does the BHPA step in legally to protect you? Ive saw somewhere a post that you dont need insurance for a bicycle because its unregulated and PPG are the same. But everybody rides or has ridden a bike and the reaction of the general public is predictable. The reaction to a PPG flying over lambs in lambing season, or over a field next to a village where they are having a BBQ may be less predictable...and it makes me more nervous being without any insurance. So for me its all inter-related. Having accepted training, being able to fly into events perhaps, and tested insurance. Because insurance is only useful if its designed to cover the actual risk... Quite frankly, if the BHPA want to standardise training they should standardise the content AND fee for the course! And schools should publish their fees on their websites and stick to it. Andy

Thanks Alan, Trickyh The BHPA website definitely states this is the cost under paramotoring its here http://www.bhpa,co.uk/paramotor/index.php Andy

Hello I have been looking around trying to understand more about paramotoring and paragliding. Important things like where the best training is, where you can take off and land, clubs and ability to drop into clubs around the UK to avoid flying around in a circle till you get fed up at your home club...and cost of course. I have to say I'm a bit intimidated/put off by the apparent politics, and perhaps the casualness of training "professionals" who dont reply or half reply...and dont give me the confidence they are around enough to get my training done in a reasonable time. BHPA says on their website "With a budget of £5,000 or so you'll be able to buy new equipment and cover the cost of a training course. " This appears to be complete garbage, with paramotors costing £4,500+ and wings £2,000 plus you are over £6,500 before helmets, radios and training. I sent the BHPA two emails enquiring and they didnt reply to any of them. Then there is this bun fight (BHPA vs not) everyone appears to be having with BHPA members telling me that I would be wasting my money if I trained with a non-BHPA club, have no insurance and no recognition. The suggestion that if you are non-BHPA trained you cant go around the country and fly at other clubs...though reading posts around the net it looks like BHPA members have problems flying at other BHPA member clubs (many not being very friendly to outsiders). Oh Ive also been warned that if you are not a BHPA member you wont have insurance and the sky will fall in...and you cant fly at most clubs because the land is in use on the condition that its insured under BHPA. I almost signed up...I saw a CP course advertised £800 local to me (in south oxfordshire). I thought I could always have a go, meet a few people and find out that way. If it wasnt what I wanted then I would stop at £800, if not I would buy equipment and progress. But after enquiring suddenly the price was £900, and when I pointed out it was £800 on the website the reply was all about how expensive it is to run a club, and finished with the comment that it should be £1700 really as its BHPA and worth more...and that if he got less students because of the higher price that would be fine! He actually was very helpfull in answering other questions, but I had made a decision to spend £800 and the idea of it suddenly being more than advertised and this BHPA scare was by this time putting me off. It appears so far that its expensive, clubs are not necessarily welcoming to outsiders, training is an extension of someones hobby and not full time professional, and the organisations do not get on or indeed reply to enquiries. Before all of this I had imagined that I could get proper safe training to a good standard. Then be able to visit other clubs and take the hobby around the country to fly in other interesting places. To be honest I'm thinking of going back to PPL which I gave up due to cost. At least I know what I'm getting if I go to the local flying school (assuming you pick a good instructor). Any advice warmly welcomed, I'm not presenting this as a true reflection of your sport, just the impressions I have gained through my efforts to understand how it works and find training. Andy

thanks for that...when the weathers isnt so cold I'm get my self organised. Having seen one of the benson squadrons of helicoptors sweep over the edge of chalgrove village today at low level in excess of 100knots I do wonder what would happen if I were pottering around there at 25knots in a paraglider!

___________________________ Hi Simon This is interesting...I started learning to fly PPL at wycombe then enstone, but ran out of cash. I looked at paramotoring but the training seems rediculously expensive, £1000+ for parasail, then the same again for a paramotor convertion. And on the net the only clubs I could find were right across the country. Do you know of a club near chalgrove I could train? I live right next to chalgrove airfield, so probably you I see sometimes flying low over the east end of the village! (not below 500 feet of course!) Is there a place where you can take off and land here? I friend told me Martin Baker are not that happy about other people using chalgrove...though I dont know how reliable his opinion was! Also...isnt chalgrove in the Benson MATZ? Is there an issue with clashing with Benson traffic here? Really interested in your experience, as there doesnt seem to be any immediate hope of me gathering enough cash to complete PPL! Andy