Dave24

I'm sorry but reading this post has me puzzled..................................In a great deal of things we purchase we all realise that manufacturers make exagerated claims from washing up liquid to premium sports cars whether that be BHP weight 0-60 times etc this is not only because there are different ways of measuring these variables for example horse power can be quoted as at the rear wheel or produces at the engine.

Quite frankly why should paramotors be any different they are producing products in a weight critical industy where -1 kilo would make a customer choose one above another, but I'm with simon ultimately its how it feels on your back. I'm sorry but if I was spending 4000 + pounds on kit I would try before I buy. BTW I think anyone claiming that one manufacturer is holier than thou is b8llock5

Merlin,

Paramotors shouldn't be any different. If they adveryise something they know is wrong, they should stop doing so. It's illegal and morally wrong. If one day you find yourself out of pocket and extremely unhappy with a product you've bought, that doesn't deliver on fact-based claims (not opinions) and where critical in your purchase decision, then you might not be so quick to condone the practice of lying to get a sale.

Dave

That sounds impressive. What would it be with harness?

The PAP Top 80 looks like the lightest (reported) of the paramotors listed - claimed 25kg and 23.4kg reported (lighter than claimed - why would that be - modifications??). Of course others have electric start, which adds a few kg.

Any other Top 80 owners out there happy to add their weight to the discussion?

Would be a great help.

I agree with you Tommcb6016. I'm not interested in bashing anyone. I do think jean-christophe has a good idea here about comparing actual weights.

For me this is really useful data since I need a paramotor and a list of actual weights are very helpful in narrowing my choice.

We could use Jean christophe's input - for the Special Edition he measured 32.5kg "average" and the SE is 1.4kg lighter than the standard Compact (which would make it 34kg):

Parajet

Volution Compact - 26kg (claimed) - 34kg (reported)

Flat Top

200 - 29kg (claimed) - 29kg (reported)

PAP

Top 80 - 25kg (claimed) - 23.4kg (reported) - interesting that this is lower

Rad

Arrow Classic - 17.5kg (claimed) - need data here

Javelin Classic - 18.5kg (claimed) - need data here

H&E

R120 - 23kg (claimed) - 29kg (reported)

Fresh Breeze

Solo 210 - "from 29kg" (claimed) - 30.4kg (reported)

We could still do with data from anyone with a Rad - or from anyone with other versions of the other brands.

You're right Alan, Freesh Breeze (I understand) do say:

Weight - from Xkg (which must be why the list I was given says "29+kg" for each

Because you can choose hang-points/harness/etc, I think they say that the weight depends on which options you choose.

Dave

I understand that there are a few variables that could be included, but comparing your actual (reported) weights to the (claimed) "as sold" weights from my original list:

Parajet

Volution Compact - 26kg (claimed) - need data here

Volution Macro - 27kg (claimed) - need data here

Flat Top

200 - 29kg (claimed) - 29kg (reported)

PAP

Top 80 - 25kg (claimed) - 23.4kg (reported)

Rad

Arrow Classic - 17.5kg (claimed) - need data here

Javelin Classic - 18.5kg (claimed) - need data here

H&E

R120 - 23kg (claimed) - 29kg (reported)

Fresh Breeze

Solo 210 - 29kg+ (claimed) - 30.4kg (reported)

Looks like H&E (claimed) figures are out (are we missing something?).

Let's have some reported data from Parajet and Rad owners.

Dave

Simon,

I think you're reading this all wrong. I am perfectly chilled. I didn't buy a paramotor which was "30% heavier" than advertised - but I can empathise with the guy on this thread who did.

As I said, if I had bought a paramotor and found out that I was mislead on weight - my #2 priority as a novice (maybe not yours as an experienced flyer), I would have been very annoyed (as I said). I can empathise with the guy who bought one and found it to be a big problem.

I also said "IF Parajet are misleading people about the weight of their paramotors" (as some people are aluding to in this thread). I said IF, because I understand that this is all based on third hand information. I am not claiming that Parajet, or you, were deliberately misleading people, but IF they, or others, were then that would be wrong.

I also said "no more slagging off anyone else's product until you get your own house in order" because I agree with you that this is supposed to be a friendly forum and sport. As someone new to the sport, reading everything on the net and speaking to as many flyers and dealers as possible (to find a paramotor for myself), I do notice it, and there is a lot of slagging going on.

Now I know you sell Parajets, but I was still surprised to see you have a go at me rather than at (the alledged practice of) Producers giving misleading figures to get a sale. I was also suprised at how quick you were to invite me "to leave the forum" despite nothing but positive comments since I joined.

Remember that everything I say, I say objectively (completely chilled) - my point is if any manufacturer lies about (important) aspects of their product then it is wrong, is illegal and should stop immediately. Do you agree?

I'm drawn to the quote:

"he said that as soon as the first lies were told re weight/thrust etc, manufacturers, in order to stay competative, also felt that they were forced to lie"

To balance:

I was also pleased to see Flat Top Dave's comment in another thread that his paramotor weighed as it was advertised.

Dave

Perhaps there are smilies I should be using throughout...

I had made the decision to buy a Parajet Compact Special Edition (£4,450 - not cheap) because it claimed to be under 25kg (i.e. it claimed to be 1.4kg lighter than the standard Compact which claimed to weigh 26kg).

Fortunately I was warned by an experienced flyer that the Parajet figures were "misleading". What you say seems to confirm this.

I would have been extremely angry if I had spent all that money and then found that the paramotor was actually 33kg+.

If Parajet are misleading people about the weight of their paramotors then this is wrong and they (and people selling them) should be (1) ashamed of themselves and (2) strung up.

Look at the Parajet web-site, the advert shows a complete paramotor with harness (including electric start) for between 25kg and 27kg depending on (Volution) model. If this is wrong, then sort it out now.

I see a lot of people slagging off Flat Top and it's owner's "outrageous claims". However, I see from this forum that claimed weights for FTs are the same as actual weights. So I say to dealers - no more slagging off anyone else's product until you get your own house in order.

Paramotor producers need to get their act together, because lying to make a sale will kill the sport and their businesses.

Dave

A friend showed me a list of paramotors and their claimed weights (as advertised on their web-sites). At a paramotor meet it got a lot of cries of horror and suggestions that certain manufacturers be strung up for making false claims.

Here are some claimed weights (assuming "as sold" - motor and harness - no fuel). I personally don't know which ones actually reflect reality, so if anyone out there can give true "as sold" figures it would be a great help:

Claimed ("as sold" weights):

Parajet

Volution Compact - 26kg

Volution Macro - 27kg

Flat Top (converted from lbs)

120 - 21kg

160 - 27kg

200 - 29kg

PAP

Top 80 - 25kg

Ros 125 - 27kg

Rad

Arrow Classic - 17.5kg

Javelin Classic - 18.5kg

H&E

R80 - 22kg

R120 - 23kg

Reading the forums allI ever hear about Parajet is that they are "bloody heavy". I don't understand why I see thei comment if they're only 26-27kg.

The RAD sounds very low. Anyone know why the claimed weights are so low?

Any thoughts?

Dave

Doesn't work on my Firefox, but does work on Internet Explorer 7.

Will there be paramotors at this event?

ive been looking at paramotors for a couple of months and after far too many headaches and talking to 'experts' i went for a pap top 80. a got a roadster M to go with it. first flight last weekend. comes up above me smoothly and cleanly, even if laid out messy. take off was simple and only a few steps. conditions were between 7-11mph ground level. cant wait for a good now!

Simon

What do you think of your Pap Top 80? Did you try, or consider, any other makes? Would you recommend the Top 80? Is it heavy?

Dave

How heavy is it?

I understand that it's supposed to be 27kg - which doesn't sound too bad. Perhaps the manufacturer's claims are missing something?

Dave

Nigel,

Thanks for your input.

Can I ask you to say a bit more about two of the points you made:

1. My next motor will not be a heavy one

2. It will probably have high hang points

Also;

3. What do you think of Rad? Would you get another, or is it a make you would personally avoid?

Dave

Where's the best place to go to try different Paramotors?

Not necessarily to fly them but to try them for weight, feel, etc

I've done my training and now need to buy the equipment. I'd rather not wait until November for an exhibition.

Are there any fly-ins, large meetings, dealers, etc. that present a good opportunity to have a look and try for size?

I live in Leeds.

Dave

Felix,

I'd like to know who the importer was so that I can avoid buying the paramotor brand. I'd also like to know who the training school was so that I avoid going there for any additional training.

Perhaps you can e-mail me? I don't see how it can cause any legal problems since it will be a private e-mail at my request.

Thanks.

Dave

Thanks for the Paramotor investigation reports.

From Simon's list there were four Paramotor reports; conclusions appear to be:

Buxton (2004) - Equipment failure (damaged U-bar used when it shouldn't have been used)

Bexhill (2007) - Equipment failure (modified H&E lift arms failure)

Tetbury (2007) - Pilot error (wing collapse too close to the ground)

Cheriton (2009) - Pilot error (wing collapse too close to the ground)

As a novice, this does appear worrying; equipment failure in two; experinced pilots flying too close to the ground (the first trying to land in windy conditions) the second doing advanced techniques.

I've done my training but haven't much flying time under my belt - can anyone give useful advice to the less experienced pilots on how to avoid injuries and fatalies in paramotoring?

Dave

Reports in full can be read here viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4301

Helimed01,

Thanks for your perspective on the different paramotors - the single most useful post I've seen on this forum so far - very helpful.

I hope others will follow with good honest opinions on the paramotors they have used.

Dave

Thanks Dantheman. Very helpful.

Dave

Thanks Mike.

I get the impression that the top paramotor producers are (in no particular order):

PAP

RAD

H&E

Parajet

Flat Top

Fresh Breeze?

I've checked their web-sites and it's not always clear which are low, medium, high or multi-attachment. I believe that Flat Top and Parajet are exclusively low attachment. Not sure about the rest.

Can anyone shed light on this question?

Dave

What do you know now that you wish you'd known when you started flying PPG?

Comedy thoughts welcome of course, but

anything practical that might help novices would be very helpful.

Excellent and very helpful write-up Pete.

Thanks

Thanks guys, very helpful responses.

I hope your efforts get others happy to share their experiences.

Dave