Michaelt Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Hi everyone, After many of months researching and visiting visiting airfields and instructors, I am just as lost as I was a year ago! Reflex or pg wing? Which is safe? Which is best for a beginner and is it true that pg's collapse less or is that reflex? So many questions! I currently have an Airwave sport 1 M in my possession for beginner training and flying, however, is it worth selling it and buying a reflex?! I apologise to everyone who has seen my debate on this many of times, but I am still as lost as anything as everyone seems to say differently! Cheers, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 If you've got a wing already then get some experience with that. If it's an older wing and you master it you will find more modern wings easier to launch as development is continuous. As said in another post get some advice and overseeing from an experienced pilot or instructor. Once you've built some experience, and saved sufficient funds, then go for a reflex wing to progress your flying further. Don't try to run before you can walk, you've oodles of time to enjoy this fabulous sport. Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelt Posted May 7, 2014 Author Share Posted May 7, 2014 I've been told a reflex is best to start with by an Instructor, I've demo'd a wing but not purchased yet, so you'd suggest a pg wing would be a good starting point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myusername Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 (edited) My initial training was on a traditional pg wing but my ongoing learning (Because learning always continues) is on my first wing, which is a reflex. I had the same questions and now finally see it like this: (I'm not an instructor, this is my own interpretation. Take it as you will & I'm happy to be corrected on any of it...continuous learning ) 1. Neither every traditional pg or every reflex is safer, it depends on the EN/DHV rating of the individual wing. Some reflex wings are EN-B, whereas some traditional wings are EN-D, while some traditional wings are nice and safe at EN-A. 2. The above notwithstanding, reflex wings are generally more resistant to tucking, because of the aerodynamic damping effect on pitch movements caused by a raised leading edge (It's harder for the wing to nose down). BUT ONLY IF THE REFLEX IS BEING USED ie. Trims open. 3. Because it requires a more extreme situation to tuck a reflex wing with trims open, the forces involved will be by default larger and the resultant incident will be more extreme, dynamic, disorienting etc. if your reflex wing does have a frontal. So what does this mean for me (And possibly you) - My wing (Dudek Synthesis LT) is rated EN-C. Unless I'm mistaken or the situation has changed, reflex wings are rated with trims closed (Non-Reflex mode). So, when I take off on an average day with trims closed and little/no reflex in the wing I am flying an EN-C. I don't particularly like this, but it is what it is. As soon as I can, I open the trimmers and the wing becomes more resistant to pitching movements and frontal collapse. The trimmers open also give me better cruising performance. So in my case, I am sacrificing the potential safety of an EN-A or EN-B wing, for the performance of having reflex in flight. My wing can be flown unpowered aswell, but I won't do that because I don't want to fly an EN-C unpowered. The unfortunate reality is that while opening the trims makes my EN-C wing safer, I usually need to have them closed during the most dangerous part of the flight - landing & taking off. Also, having trimmers is one more thing to remember & worry about when flying, and to remember when landing/taking off or if you get an engine out (My trims are a PITA to close in a hurry for landing ) I wouldn't go back to non-reflex, but I wouldn't condone doing initial training on one. Why? Because initially when learning you wont be using the trimmers anyway, so why with zero experience would anyone want to do repeated low altitude circuits, landings & takeoffs on an EN-C to learn, instead of a forgiving EN-A. I think everyone's initial training should always be on a low end EN-A designed for training. But I'm NOT an instructor, so I could be wrong & I'm sure many would disagree. You can get EN-B reflex wings, but whichever reflex you get, just keep in mind that its safety as per the rating is with the reflex off , with the reflex on its resistance to tucking will increase. But if you get into big air & it does tuck in reflex mode, you want to have the experience & cool head to deal with a very extreme situation. I don't yet, so I avoid any questionable conditions. It's usually recommended to use active flying with reflex off in turbulence in case you hit an unexpected invisible monster. But in my case with reflex off its EN-C & I'm fecked anyway, so I just carefully manage the days & conditions I choose to fly in. Fingers crossed! Edited May 8, 2014 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelt Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 Thank you, This makes sense to me! My only concerns now is that the pg wing, in the manual, says that it is not suitable for motorizled flight? Also, the manufacturers emailed me saying he would not advise flight as it was never certified? However, the chap that is selling it to me is sure that it is best! However, another instructor says that he would only train me on a reflex! I take your point, it makes sense and ties into what both of these people have said, just now deciding! Also, being a youngster, I am unsure whether I can upgrade ny wing for several years, took me three years to save enough to get to this point, I can't afford to be swapping and changing for now? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myusername Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Some are certified for motorised flight, some are not. I guess you have to decide to either accept your instructors recommendation, or if you also want to have the piece of paper from the manufacturer. As Alan said, you don't need to worry about this yet if your current wing is suitable for PPG. Just enjoy flying, get some hours up & maybe you'll be in a better position to decide how to spend your money then. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelt Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 This is the problem, the instructor has 3500 hours in his logbook, but is not a Bhpa instructor like many are and does not own a club, he is doing it on a one to one basis. Also, the wing manual said " Not suitable for acrobatics or motorized flight". So I emailed Airwave and they said that " We could not say you couldn't use it, however, the wing is not certified and we recommended you buying a Puma or a reflex style wing designed for paramotors" This leaves me in a tricky situation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul2289 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Also when looking at a wings rating download and read the full report. The rating is the worse behaviour across all the tests not an average i.e. All tests could be an A but only one returning as a C will make it a EN-C wing. What you most need to be concerned with as a beginner is its ability to self recover with no input from the pilot. http://www.para-test.com As mentioned these tests are conducted with the trimmers in. Technically as soon as you let the trimmers out you become uncertified. You will probably crave a full reflex if you start flying with other pilots otherwise you will be left for dust! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganers Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 Mike, Are you saying the wing you have at the moment is not suitable for motorised flight? If the manufacturer is saying this personally i wouldn't use it. I learned on and still use a synthesis, a reflex wing, I find it well behaved and is widely used for beginners. I understand what "myusername" says and agree with him in part, but as a beginner your flying window is very small avoiding the majority of situations where rough air is likely. Therefore as your abilities grow your wing grows with you and you learn to get the most out of it. I know cost is always an issue but you only have one ass, and it's a long way down realising you saved a few quid. Master your ground handling on what you have, it's not enough to be able to get the wing overhead. You need to be confident enough to play with the wing and enjoy ground handling before thinking of taking off no matter how long it takes. With regards to your instructor, make sure you are confident in him. I've had very poor instruction and got badly injured. Once proper instruction was received I've enjoyed every second safely. If you have good instruction listen to him it's there for a reason. Right now you don't know what type of flying is for you so choosing a wing you won't have to replace is very difficult anyway. So forget it for now and practice what you can, with what you have. Cheers Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelt Posted May 8, 2014 Author Share Posted May 8, 2014 Thank you for the information, plenty to think about before I do anything! However, I think confidents is best, and like you said, in the instructor! We'll see! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgy Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 This makes sense to me! My only concerns now is that the pg wing, in the manual, says that it is not suitable for motorizled flight? Also, the manufacturers emailed me saying he would not advise flight as it was never certified? MichaelT Ask your self this.. The manual said Unsuitable for Motorised flight.. The manufacturer says they would NOT advise you to use it for motorised flight. BUT the guy Trying too SELL you this wing said it's OK????? HHMMmmm Stick to what your instructor recommends and you will not go far wrong "if he is a Good Instructor and not just trying to sell you what he sell's" There is northing wrong with PG wings for learning/first wing BUT make sure they are suitable and have the correct motor trimmers fitted if appropriate .. PG wings are Allot slower than Most if not All Reflex wings. When you fly with others you do not want to be the one always left for dust, As a new pilot you will most likely be flying in Very calm low wind conditions and the chance of getting a collapse on a modern Reflex wing is next to Zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 What he said. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelt Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 I don't feel safe with the idea, and I do like the thought of keeping up with everyone! But if I lose speed for safety, then that is best! The chap who is selling it is an ex instructor and ownd a school and reckons reflex's are dangerous to learn on, however, he did instruct back in the 90's and technology would of advanced. He was never apart of the Bhpa either. My local instructor who is a member of the bhpa and owns a flying school, no names mentioned, but is located at Boston and Wingland airfield and goes by the nickname Chilly, great chap! Recommends I buy a dudek wing? But cheers for the advice! All taken on board and im sure you all and I will be relieved when i stop posting threads related to wings! Haha Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Theres only one deciding factor when buying a wing as to wether its reflex or not and that's your budget, you can pick up second generation reflex wing s for a reasonable sum nowadays and they are far removed from the early reflex designs, I learnt on a hill wing, but only because back then there were very few choices of reflex wing and they were not easy to master, so would not have been suitable for a newbie. wings like the synth, revo2 ect are a huge leap forward over the old stuff, they are doddle to launch and are very forgiving of clumsy inputs, very stable and with and excellent speed range. just take a look at say a revo being launched on youtube, then watch how easier a revo2 is to launch, theres no reason for a newbie to thin the more modern reflex wings would not be suitable for them. if your budget can manage it go for reflex every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Whats you budget for a wing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelt Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 Thanks Dave, I would of thought roughly £2500 for wing and motor, however I might he able to source a good motor from my instructor and an ex Brits comp mechanic for just over £1000, so go for £1100 average... There is a revo 2 for sale locally for £1200 which is tempting! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myusername Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Have a look at 'Skyads' aswell, some great deals to be negotiated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Thanks Dave,I would of thought roughly £2500 for wing and motor, however I might he able to source a good motor from my instructor and an ex Brits comp mechanic for just over £1000, so go for £1100 average... There is a revo 2 for sale locally for £1200 which is tempting! Cheers you wont go wrong with a revo2, great wing, very easy to live with and a good confidence builder, what size is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelt Posted May 10, 2014 Author Share Posted May 10, 2014 Skyads! Almost forgot! Thanks! And I believe M, I will take a look! Being sold on Facebook but Morgy knows of the chap anyway! i am sure he will know more than me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Skyads! Almost forgot! Thanks!And I believe M, I will take a look! Being sold on Facebook but Morgy knows of the chap anyway! i am sure he will know more than me! in that case its proberly a grand and morgys stuck a few quid on top Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 just kidding by the way, as we all know how sensitive he is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgy Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Dave you want a slap!! It's stuart Mowarts wing (FlyMo) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgy Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Aslo being sold on here.... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9661 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Aslo being sold on here....viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9661 I was going to suggest that wing but I thought he wanted a bit more for it BTW its my old wing, I bought it new from Simon, its a brilliant beginner wing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelt Posted May 13, 2014 Author Share Posted May 13, 2014 I need to get rid of my current one, then i will consider! bloody thing this pg wing is turning out to be! haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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