tomarnold Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I bought my first PPG wing last month and have now flown about 6 hours on it. Before this one, I flew a DHV2 / ENC paragliding wing (a Freex Vaxin), and I usually found I used around 2.5l of fuel per hour (with a Rad Arrow). Since getting my Paramania Revo I have so far burned an average of 3.5l of fuel per hour. This is when flying trims in usually around the 'takeoff' setting on the trimmers. I am enjoying flying the Revo because it is nice to be able to let the trimmers out and feel nice and stable in the rough stuff (my previous wing was very twitchy, unsurprisingly), but it seems a shame to have to fly everywhere on full throttle and to use so much more fuel. But perhaps that's the price you pay for a bit more speed and stability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 A reflex wing as fuel efficient as a PG wing = the holy grail of wings. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbertflyer Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Normal to get this. Trade off all the while. I still fly the the engine I flew in the 90's and could never maintain level flight on full trims on a mid 2000's Reflex wing. But the wing felt very stable on full chat. The modern ppg wings are better, but so are the modern PG wings. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Revo 1 is a bot old now, my Nuc is not considered cutting edge either but I still only have to fly with half throttle on full trim, not screaming the motor in any way,did you mean to say with the trimmers in take off position you are having to give it lots of throttle for level flight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomarnold Posted August 2, 2013 Author Share Posted August 2, 2013 Yes, that's exactly right, I have to fly on full throttle all the time to maintain level flight with the trims on the Neutral setting. And if there's sinky air about (as there was last night) sometimes I can't maintain level flight even on full throttle! Last week I flew at midday in some pretty boisterous air and flew mostly on full trims-out and it did feel nice and stable and I didn't use much fuel but that's because I used the thermals carefully (I have been freeflying for around 8 years so have a fair bit of XC experience) but that's not really what I went into PPG for. I guess that a lot of this is down to my motor which is an old Rad Arrow. So perhaps I would be better off trading in my extra speed and reverting back to a PG wing (a DHV1 or 1-2 to retain some of the passive safety). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgy Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 Hi Sounds like your motor need a bit more power... Its not 100% about pure eco figures.... Work out your KPL km per Litre... My guess is it will work out better on the revo.. 3.5lph on full trim is good... for a two stroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomarnold Posted August 2, 2013 Author Share Posted August 2, 2013 Sadly more power is not an option for the moment - my next motor needs at least another 2 years of saving up! So perhaps reverting back to a PG wing is the best option with my current motor. Although I can fly faster with the Revo, I don't like flying at full throttle all the time - I'd rather fly a bit slower and use 1/2 to 3/4 throttle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbertflyer Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 A paramotor (say) AUW of 150kg and at (say) 50kg of thrust at full revs, will struggle with the older PPG wings. Full fast trims and full speed bar (with an upright pilot and a big fan/cage) will probably have an L/D glide ratio worse than 3:1 (Drag of 50kg) and therefore not keep level flight in this mode. (simplistic aero theory, but a good approximation for our relatively slow flying aircraft). Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s1buell_wl Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 Turn, I don't know your motor at all but does it seen to have a bit of extra power? Does it spin up the prop fast? or maybe not and its getting tired? What I'm thinking is a bigger prop if the motor and gear set can handle it. I run a mini top80 and a 130prop with lots of power. But maybe the guys are right older wing and older motor could be a combo effect of the two. Maybe if your mechanically inclined you can hone the cylinder pick up some rings and breath a little life back into the old girl (low cost). In my experience 2 strokes come back to life with a new set of reeds and rings. cheers T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 Tom what motor is it, is the prop correctly matched for the motor, I find it quite amazing that you need that much throttle all the time, you climb rate must be painfully slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomarnold Posted August 3, 2013 Author Share Posted August 3, 2013 I think the motor is fine (as it flew well with my DHV2 paragliding wing), but perhaps it is simply not well-matched to a first-generation reflex wing like the Revolution. They weren't around when my motor was built, so it is mis-matched technology. When I have saved up a little money I will take the motor to a 2-stroke expert and see what they can do with it. There isn't enough cage clearance to fit a bigger prop. A friend of mine has offered me to try a Gradient Golden, so I'll give it a go and compare the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 It is a simple one. It's either A) more thrust or B) a more efficient wing SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 What motor is it Tom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivefreeman Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 My guess is its an old rad arrow Dave !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted August 3, 2013 Share Posted August 3, 2013 My guess is its an old rad arrow Dave !! was it your old motor Clive, the one you said you sold as it was shagged and on its way out, needed a rebore or something, you said you were goner find some mug to by it before it went bang. is it that one Clive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s1buell_wl Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Tom, on that Golden 2 I think you need to change the risers not sure. But I've heard they are ok for PPG just a bit slow unless you get on the speedbar. But as you know the Golden 2 speed bar is not something to be played with they are famous for frontal's on full speed bar. How many cc's is that motor? I have the miniplane 80cc small frame and the large 130prop. The cage does not really cover the prop but it's what ever your comfortable with. I have a 26m Ozone Speedster and issue pushing the glider with 80cc. Yea might be worth looking thought the books and see if you can find the compression values for that motor then pick up a cheap compression tester $15-20. This will end the motor debate really quick. It will also prove if this motor is Clive's old unit lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 Tom, on that Golden 2 I think you need to change the risers not sure. But I've heard they are ok for PPG just a bit slow unless you get on the speedbar. But as you know the Golden 2 speed bar is not something to be played with they are famous for frontal's on full speed bar. How many cc's is that motor? I have the miniplane 80cc small frame and the large 130prop. The cage does not really cover the prop but it's what ever your comfortable with. I have a 26m Ozone Speedster and issue pushing the glider with 80cc. Yea might be worth looking thought the books and see if you can find the compression values for that motor then pick up a cheap compression tester $15-20. This will end the motor debate really quick. It will also prove if this motor is Clive's old unit lol. I was joking when I wrote that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbertflyer Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 My cruise speed on a modern ENC PG wing is 40kph at 2,700 revs and I average 3.75l/hour. My top speed on full bar is 54kph at 3,200 revs and I average 6.25 l/hour. (Top engine revs is 3800). A cubed increase in consumption relative to revs. This is significant when you consider some of the older more inefficient PPG wings. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptwizz Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 Even with the most effecient wing, the power required to travel faster is proportional to the square of your speed, so to double your speed you need four times the power. In addition to this is the characteristic of your prop and engine: Thrust from the prop (at a given RPM) will decrease with forward speed. As forward speed increases, the prop and engine must increase RPM to maintain thrust. As RPM increases, the drag of the prop blades themselves also increases as a square law. If your prop pitch and gearing are set up for peak power at, say 30k forward speed, any greater speed will allow the engine to spin faster than it's peak power RPM and its effeciency will decrease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomarnold Posted August 6, 2013 Author Share Posted August 6, 2013 I'll go for a fly this evening on my Revo and see how much fuel I use, and then I'll fly with the Golden next time I go out and compare the figures... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy4115 Posted August 6, 2013 Share Posted August 6, 2013 Hi Tom, was that you flying around Misterton tonight ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s1buell_wl Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Tom, on that Golden 2 I think you need to change the risers not sure. But I've heard they are ok for PPG just a bit slow unless you get on the speedbar. But as you know the Golden 2 speed bar is not something to be played with they are famous for frontal's on full speed bar. How many cc's is that motor? I have the miniplane 80cc small frame and the large 130prop. The cage does not really cover the prop but it's what ever your comfortable with. I have a 26m Ozone Speedster and issue pushing the glider with 80cc. Yea might be worth looking thought the books and see if you can find the compression values for that motor then pick up a cheap compression tester $15-20. This will end the motor debate really quick. It will also prove if this motor is Clive's old unit lol. I was joking when I wrote that lol I know I was just giving him another poke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outkast Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Tom, on that Golden 2 I think you need to change the risers not sure. But I've heard they are ok for PPG just a bit slow unless you get on the speedbar. But as you know the Golden 2 speed bar is not something to be played with they are famous for frontal's on full speed bar. How many cc's is that motor? I have the miniplane 80cc small frame and the large 130prop. The cage does not really cover the prop but it's what ever your comfortable with. I have a 26m Ozone Speedster and issue pushing the glider with 80cc. Yea might be worth looking thought the books and see if you can find the compression values for that motor then pick up a cheap compression tester $15-20. This will end the motor debate really quick. It will also prove if this motor is Clive's old unit lol. I was joking when I wrote that lol I know I was just giving him another poke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivefreeman Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Oi stop poking me [WINKING FACE] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomarnold Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 Yep, that was me over Misterton. 600ft on the way out, and a gradual climb up to 1500ft over Beaminster. I returned at 1300ft above Misterton on my way back home. Where are you based? Misterton I'm guessing If you're that close by, it would be great to get together for a fly. Flew for 50 minutes last night with the trims mostly on the slowest setting. My max engine revs is 9600rpm, and I was cruising level at about 8700rpm. I used 3.5l in 50 minutes. So next time it looks nice a evening for flying, I'll go out on the Golden2 and see what the difference is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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