rob999 Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 I have reposted this from a thread I posted a couple of days ago as it concerns motors, rather than wings, (the original post) I hope thats ok.......Its a newbie sort of observation. Its not meant to upset any of the motor suppliers on here, that is certainly not my intention. It is hopefully going to encourage debate along the lines of 'mine is better than yours, and here are the reasons why'... Morgy, Am I interested in a Bailey??? To be perfectly honest I am so confused with motors. I did some training with Deano last year. He went abroard before I went solo. His advice ws a Parajet with a Polini 100. Now I read that the Polini 100 is being phased out, being replaced with a 130, and I read that Deano went to the factory a week or so ago to get his converted to a 130. Deano recommended a low point harness. I like the 'look' of the Bulldog, but not low point harness. Parajet with either the Polini or Vitarozzi, local to me but pricey. Bailey engine, more pricey. Bailey, expensive and high hang point. Heavy, but I do like 4 stroke engines. Custom Air, Air Conception. titanium frame, right engine and harness, lovely weight but relatively unproved in the UK. TAG Paramotors, very competitive price but again unproven in the UK. So, Morgy, can you see my dilemma.. I guess everyone has differing parameters and now there are so many differing paramotors for the differing parameters... ha ha ha.... It would be nice if someone could do a side by side road test to give us all a benchmark to work from. There is only info from manufacturers and comments by owners, there is no independant reviews out there.... Sorry to bang on about this, but I'm probably not the only newbie that answers to newbieconfused.com... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bholleran Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) I don't think you will not like my answer but here goes. What colour of car have you got? Mines is Ice blue, why? 1. Because I like it 2. Because the manufacturer only did it in four colours on the model I wanted, green, black, blue or white. I wanted red but it was not available so I had to compromise. I think the same applies here, I could come up with a list of very good reasons to justify any Paramotor because they all have pros and cons. It is what is best suited to you. The only real way to find out is go and try them on your back, do some hang tests, check out the dealers and make sure your are happy that they can support you. And if possible get a fly. Listen to you instructor, but take some of it with a pinch of salt if they also sell equipment. Sorry it does not directly answer the question but I hope it helps. Barry Edited February 25, 2013 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom-vince Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 The choice is simple Choose the AirConception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ganers Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 This is a good question. The best answer is as above you have to try them and it's personal choice. However so far I've had the opportunity to have a good look at the ec extreame, parajet and bulldog. The prettiest is by far the parajet, i think it was the zenith but I'm still a newbie myself. However it looked like it would be hard to sort out if it took a good bang but looked strong. The ec again looks the part all nice curves and well finished its also very comfy but very heavy. The tubing on the ec is very then thin and and not very forgiving if you fall on it. The bulldog is definately the ugly sister of the three, but the tubing is thick and inspires confidence in the main chassis I've also seen two missed landings with these machines which resulted in nothing more than a bent spar thats easily replaced. The high verses low hang points is something of a personal choice I think. I've spoke to those who say high is best as its more stable and the only advantage is weight shift, which was said to be negligible. And those who say low is best because of the weight shift but again you get bounced a bit more in thermals. Personally I've only flown high hang points and liked it, but I've nothing to compare it to, however after one particularly bumpy flight I was glad to be on high hang points if low would have made the flight evenore bumpy. But again I'm still very inexperienced and as such a bit nervous of thermals. All in all for me, I've gone for bulldog for my dad and one for me when I replace my ec. I think the chassis and frame is the big choice and that kind of dictates the actual motor that will be fitted depending on the options the manufacturer supplies. But your right there are sooo many choices available depending largely on choice and what type of flying you want to do. Cheers Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom-vince Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 I think all machines will bend if you crash one hard enough. Think I have seen pretty much every machine squished at somepoint. Be it in person or in pictures. Alloy is definitly the softest option, it generally doesn't bend back without cracking. Stainless is heavier and will bend but not as readily as alloy, and can bend back. Truth is its tube does requires a fair amount of work to make good again. Titanium is the strongest and lightest option by a fair margin. It can also bend and be bent back. High and low hangpoints is not only personal but varies in comfort for different weight/size pilots and between machines. Bulldog is extra high hangpoint. EC is classic high. PAP is about the lowest. Zenith is Mid height weight shift. J bars are extra high but less popular now days. I have found larger pilots (larger round the middle) have more room in high hang machines. Shorter pilots suffer a little with low hang point tipping back. My new favorite since flying the Zenith and now my AirConception has to be the swan necks. Also found on the miniplane. It gives weight shift, comfort, balanced flight and on my AirConception I have no torque effect. Engine weight affects balance and comfort. Portability, setup time etc all play a role in choosing a paramotor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 I went for the Bulldog Moster loads of power the design of the harness so that it adjusts to all sizes is superb. If you are learning on it the parts are probably the cheapest of all the motors if you bash it around, removable fuel tank and it packs down into a small bow and arrow bag, back up is superb and the designer/manufacturer is very knowledgeable. For me this machine ticks all the boxes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbirdyxx Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 All in all for me, I've gone for bulldog for my dad and one for me when I replace my ec. Cheers Lee. Nice one Lee.you know it makes sense We now have two Bulldogs in our household too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil1975 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 I have the Bulldog too. It's all I've ever flown, so I have nothing to compare it to. My experiences of it (good & bad) are: Good. 1. Clive knows his sh*t & has really thought about the design - there's so much thought gone into it that you will never realise, until you speak to Clive. 2. It's bloody strong, don't ask me how I know that. 3. It's good value, as Paramotors go. 4. Harness is fantastic, I have tried several others & this is by far the best in terms of comfort & adjustability. 5. It's British. It's petty, but I love the Union Jack on the netting! Bad. 1. Personally I don't like the split fuel tank, I had problems with mine, although they've been OK recently following some tweaking. 2. Some people dislike the hang points. It was designed to be a school/beginner machine & it's set up well for that purpose. 3. Clive is sometimes tricky to get hold of for parts etc, but then he is a busy man. If he had someone else to help him I think things would be a lot better. Overall I like mine & I think I bought the right machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommcb6016 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 I'd recommend the Parajet, it's all I've ever flown so can't offer much in the way of experience of other brands. But with the dealings I've had with them and the quality of the kit I'd highly recommend them. If I could afford a Zenith then I'd have one already! :...( Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbirdyxx Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Bulldog is extra high hangpoint. . What makes you say that Vince? If you are a Freak of nature or have very long hairy arms the Bulldog harness is fully adjustable. Out of the two ECs, Parapower,fly castellucio and Fresh Breeze I have owned the Bulldog has the lowest Hang Points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firefly Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I'm looking at getting my first motor later this year too. I've done loads of research and narrowed it down to three. Here goes: Bailey V5 4 stroke, love the idea if not having to worry about mixing fuel. My chainsaw always plays up if the mixture is even slightly out! British built too, but maybe a bit heavy? Bulldog No one has a bad word to say about these machines! UK based back up too. Air Conception 130 The weight at only 20kg sounds very tempting. I can imagine newbies have trips and falls on take off and landing due to the weight being carried? No bad reports about it that I've found. But only really seem to hear from people that sell them, not independent owners? Well, I've got a couple of months to make my choice!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morgy Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Hi Rob The Bailey comes in at 27kg the thor 100/130zenith comes in at around 25kg... same thrust figures, you will loose that difference buy the time you add fuel. If you want to have a look at the Bailey V5 we have stock and a demo machine for you to try. We also have the V5 powered Zenith coming in a couple of weeks if you want to come and compare the two. Aslo Rob the Bailey V5 Is a mid to low hang point. NOT high!!! Fire fly Same for you ... if you want to come and have a look sit fly your more than welcome too as i do prefer to meet with all our customers if i Can. We are the only UK dealer to back up our customers with Spare's, Cage sections, Props, (Chassis sometimes in stock) If you bend it we will ment it. Most Machines wil be fixed the SAME DAY!! unless its a major engine issue then it has to go back to Paul Bailey. Touch wood none yet!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil1975 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I would recommend buying from Morgy. His back up is as good as he says, he flies a lot & knows the kit. When I can afford to upgrade, then I'll be paying him a visit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I do notice that a lot of people make a big thing regarding low and high point clip in on the machines so I would like to give you my opinion on the motors I have owned. I started on a Parajet Macro which I bought second hand ( low hangpoint) I then bought a brand new Flymecc (low hangpoint) and I now own a Bulldog Moster ( medium high Hangpoint). Going from low to high has not made an apennys difference to me and as we are now training people from our club I am constantly flying other people's equipment(low mainly). My Parajet was a great machine and the only complaint (post owning) was the harness was awful, Parajet have rectified this on their latest machines.I would like to point out their after sales is superb,top company. I swapped to the Flymecc for the low weight of the machine and also longer duration in the air but sacrificing power and the bonus was a comfortable harness my friend still flies this at our club another great machine. The Bulldog Moster is the best of both of my previous machines lots of power like the Parajet but lighter than the Flymecc but on medium high hangpoints which have made no differences apart from adjusting the brake lengths. All the above Paramotors are great machines in my opinion and the latest high hang point machines should not be confused with the old ones a quote from my flying buddy Mark who had previously flown high hang point machines Just out of interest I had a Bailey V5 on my back at the NEC and spoke to Paul Bailey I can't comment on how it flys but it felt great the main reason I did not go for one of these was it was similar thrust output to the Flymecc and as I am not the lightest of people I wanted more thrust. I've never met Morgy but have read plenty of his posts and he does go that extra mile (well he would do he's on a Bailey) to help his customers and others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Have bulldogs got new hang points now then? as all the ones I have seen and the one i have are HIGH hang point. You cant get much higher thats for sure. Pete PS not knocking the bulldog its a great machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinoxyfen Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) I'm looking at getting my first motor later this year too. I've done loads of research and narrowed it down to three. Here goes: Bailey V5 4 stroke, love the idea if not having to worry about mixing fuel. My chainsaw always plays up if the mixture is even slightly out! British built too, but maybe a bit heavy? Bulldog No one has a bad word to say about these machines! UK based back up too. Air Conception 130 The weight at only 20kg sounds very tempting. I can imagine newbies have trips and falls on take off and landing due to the weight being carried? No bad reports about it that I've found. But only really seem to hear from people that sell them, not independent owners? Well, I've got a couple of months to make my choice!! I am in the same position re buying, my choices were: Bailey V5 Parajet volution Air Conception I'm 99% sure I will get a Parajet as they are the closest dealer, only 40 mins drive rather than 3-4 hours, I don't like buying French ever since they banned our beef exports, and my instructor sells them! Edited February 26, 2013 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I'm 99% sure I will get a Parajet as they are the closest dealer, only 40 mins drive rather than 3-4 hours, I don't like buying French ever since they banned our beef exports and my instructor sells them! LOL SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom-vince Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I wasn't saying high hang is bad. It's just my observation. I am happy to fly high low mid what ever. You get used to anything. My favourite is the S arms for inflight feel and position. I love only having 22kg on my back, that's a big bonus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachemWir Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I am also looking to get my first motor and was looking at the air conception moster, but today I read a review of it in paramotor mag, on the whole it was very positive with only three negatives:- 1) significent torque effect when applying power 2) the noise, output was measured at 107 Db 3) the harness, they said it felt a bit cheap and could have done with a bit more back protection and I wondered if anything had been done to tweak the setup in regard to those things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbirdyxx Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 very positive with only three negatives:-? Another Joke Take a look in the Classifieds,Mary is selling her Air Conception its very very clean,you might say its an Immaculate Conception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Have bulldogs got new hang points now then? as all the ones I have seen and the one i have are HIGH hang point.You cant get much higher thats for sure. Pete PS not knocking the bulldog its a great machine. Hello Pete how are you doing we are hoping to catch up with you at the next flyin down south hope you can make it back to our flyin later this year anyway it appears there is more than one high hang point Custom Vince states 3 or 4 but my point was regarding our past experience with the Rad Racket type high hangpoint which is nothing like the weight shift bulldog set up cheers Alan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom-vince Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I am also looking to get my first motor and was looking at the air conception moster, but today I read a review of it in paramotor mag, on the whole it was very positive with only three negatives:-1) significent torque effect when applying power 2) the noise, output was measured at 107 Db 3) the harness, they said it felt a bit cheap and could have done with a bit more back protection and I wondered if anything had been done to tweak the setup in regard to those things? Absolutely, in my experience all the motors I have flown had suffered some form of Torque steer, obviously some more than others. The standard high hang point model (I think thats the one tested) is just like any other high hang point machine add enough power and you will get some torque effect. I recommend the S arms (swan necks) these produce zero torque turn with my 85kg and 75kg thrust. The only other machine I flew that was close to this is the Zenith which also flew strait and also happens to have Swan necks. The Titanium swan necks are offset through the arm, this system also works better than off sets setup in the frame. Noise has also been addressed and I understand much work was done with Eric Dufors help. The motor tested was one of the first versions. The harness I have on my machine is the lightweight version and it lacks padding in favour of weight saving, it has padding but not like you would find on a 3.5kg harness. As for back support that is just an adjustment strap, maybe that was missing on the early test machine. There is also a new harness available which I haven't seen yet, a very new addition. I would say every criticism has been taken on board and rectified. There is a purpose built tandem option the 75kg thrust & 22kg paramotor is great for tandems. Since the test there is now an even lighter unit. 19kg Ultra that is 65kg thrust. Its all tough titanium and minimalistic design, you are welcome to come over and have a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custom-vince Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I have a friend who loves his Bulldog, he says he gets good weight shift and finds it stable and comfortable in flight. Its a high hang point machine vs low or medium. There are different heights of low, different heights of medium and different heights of high, and then there is those mobile J bar things that requires arms like an ape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barfinmartha Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Just a thought but what about a PAP. This is a biased posting because I sell them but that aside I also fly with a PAP because they are beautifully designed, well built and as reliable as any other paramotor. I love the low hangpoints and now you can even get one with a Polini engine. If you are interested drop me a line. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachemWir Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 [quote name="custom-vince Absolutely' date=' in my experience all the motors I have flown had suffered some form of Torque steer, obviously some more than others. The standard high hang point model (I think thats the one tested) is just like any other high hang point machine add enough power and you will get some torque effect. I recommend the S arms (swan necks) these produce zero torque turn with my 85kg and 75kg thrust. The only other machine I flew that was close to this is the Zenith which also flew strait and also happens to have Swan necks. The Titanium swan necks are offset through the arm, this system also works better than off sets setup in the frame. Noise has also been addressed and I understand much work was done with Eric Dufors help. The motor tested was one of the first versions. The harness I have on my machine is the lightweight version and it lacks padding in favour of weight saving, it has padding but not like you would find on a 3.5kg harness. As for back support that is just an adjustment strap, maybe that was missing on the early test machine. There is also a new harness available which I haven't seen yet, a very new addition. I would say every criticism has been taken on board and rectified. Since the test there is now an even lighter unit. 19kg Ultra that is 65kg thrust. Its all tough titanium and minimalistic design, you are welcome to come over and have a look.[/quote] that sounds ok but at £4800 are a tad expensive, have you stopped selling the kobra range? they have the moster also but there is no sign of them on your website although Kobra still have you listed as a dealer. Tim I did look at the PAP but on your website there is no price list! I have also looked at the PXP which also offers the moster and is under £4000, does anyone have any comments on those? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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