aquatix Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I have no problem with wing registration as it will prove that the idiot low flying over the road/ village was not me or they would have my number . I guess you would also want to submit your DNA and fingerprints to the database in case any murders or thefts happen in the village ? (light-hearted, so no need for the stock "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" reply from 'big brother'.....) Thankfully the burden of proof is different in the UK, although the press and local councils are still likely to tar us all with the same brush - numbers or not. Seriously, availability and choice of insurance can only be viewed as a good thing, as everybody has different requirements. I am yet to be convinced of any tangible benefits of wing registration however, unless it is the only route some people have to obtain insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haze Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Are there any other policies under the same underwriter that you might be able to get? Such as Instructor insurance, PPG Tandem cover, etc? I know that even the BHPA Instructors out there would like to have more than their £50k cover and obviously all the independent chaps out there are wanting some protection. It would be good to have a decent PPG Tandem Cover as well, as I can't understand why the BHPA don't offer that already. (It makes no sense to allow PPG, but not PPG Tandem!) Steve Haze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Are there any other policies under the same underwriter that you might be able to get?Such as Instructor insurance, PPG Tandem cover, etc? I know that even the BHPA Instructors out there would like to have more than their £50k cover and obviously all the independent chaps out there are wanting some protection. It would be good to have a decent PPG Tandem Cover as well, as I can't understand why the BHPA don't offer that already. (It makes no sense to allow PPG, but not PPG Tandem!) Steve Haze PPG tandem has greater risk of injury to the passenger due to being in front of you and if they slip/trip or sit down to early then they could have you and a heavy motor with a very fast spinning prop coming down on top of them. When a suitably safe way to take off and land with a passenger is found/shown then they may consider cover for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trickyh Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Sorry for the thread drift Simon and well done on the insurance thing btw! If we're going to be registered by the CAA, does that mean out personal details are going to appear on G-INFO ?? http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1 What concerns me, which does not affect most of our flying colleagues. Is that any herbert can write down our reg number, look up our addresses on G-INFO and break into our garages and nick 8 grands worth of kit! I dont know of any other pursuit where this can happen, and I think our personal details should be hidden by the data protection act! Sorry if this has already been thought of and i'm talkin out of my arse (again) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Good point. Requires thought... Hot air ballons SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 It's very exciting seeing insurance companies coming back into the PPG industry The more the merrier. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Mike (Chilly) , All to keep it simple... Yes you will have to stick letters on your wing which is why we have added it and are taking away the admin of having to do it. Many people avoid it because of things like the form not being filled in correctly and being charged again and so on.... We have cleaned that up a little by submitting the forms for anyone taking this option up. I know a large number of people dont want this, if honest I don't mind much either way... If you fly like a loony on heat then I can see the problem with wing reg, if you are a sensible pilot it will stop 'us' getting the blame for others loony on heat type flying. SW Thanks Simon, So, just to clarify, are you registering just the wing, or the whole aircraft (Wing & Motor)? Where does the fireproof metal plate have to be fitted to? It is my understanding that the wing and motor have to be registered as the "aircraft". G number on wing, fireproof Metal plate on Motor. I gather it is then the aircraft, not the person being insured, so the person would not be able to fly other equipment under insurance, unless that equipment was also insured. Is my understanding correct, or have I got it wrong, or missing something? Insurers have a history of avoiding paying out claims unless all conditions, rules have been fully complied with, so we just need to be 100% clear what is required. Thanks Chilly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 For foot launched PPG you register the WING only. So no fireproof plate required. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 For foot launched PPG you register the WING only. So no fireproof plate required. SW Thanks Simon, I was unaware of this, it is good news. I could not see it anywhere on the CAA website or publications. Do you know where can I see this in "Black & White" so to speak? You are probably more up to date with this given your recent negotiations etc. Thanks Chilly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 When you submit the forms, telling them its foot launched they will require only the wing to be registered. The form will not easily fit around a Paramotor as it stands. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyfreefly Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Hello Ive been lying low for a while....whilst learning how to walk again after my paramotor accident 1year and 2 months now I have however been a busy busy bee getting myself back into microlighting (( FORCED TO )) and have just made myself a SSDR trike and have also become a UK importer of Ace Aviation wings (Delta Wings)....I figured rather than have all those lines waiting to get caught up in my prop in a Paratrike I might as well have a wing that wont get anything caught up with the Prop .... Hence the wing choice.... So Ive just gone through the process of registering the trike and wing with the CAA and obtaining insurance Via the BHPA £100.00 pound ish for a year I was a member of the BMAA but with the cost of that and separate insurance it worked out around £300 dearer and it brought back all those memories of why Years ago I switched from microlights to Paramotoring Because of all the ( youve got to have this you carnt do this because of that,.. this needs a certificate.. oops that needs a permit to fit..That camera you have fitted to the wing needs a mini mod certificate to be legal ... Blah Blah Blah Bullsh*t Paramotoring was freedom from all that paper shuffling.. I see it as the thin end of the wedge....and I for one and I am sure not the only one point blank refuse to register a paraglider wing or paramotor wing (assuming that one day I can return to my preferred way of flying ) ie run again. Before we know it we will be forced to fly with Transponders and with that comes the ability to CHARGE by the Hour.. However if you do want paramotor insurace I think The work Simon has done should be applauded But I think the Caa will have opened a can of worms if they insist on wing reg for Rag wings its just not the same as other forms of flying,,how many wings do you have I had 5 at one time and test flew loads and one got used just 2 time a year enough said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 NICE JOB!!! I also like the idea of a Delta.... currently doing nppl (m) Glad that you have got yourself back into the air again!! Now just to work out how to fit a Delta to my quad!!! SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 When you submit the forms, telling them its foot launched they will require only the wing to be registered. The form will not easily fit around a Paramotor as it stands. SW To satisfy my own natural curiosity, I wrote to the registration department at the CAA regarding this matter. They do state that if UK registration is applied for for a foot launched paramotor, then it has to be both the wing, and the motor that has to be registered. The fireproof metal plate would have to be fixed to the motor, and the wing would have to carry the number. This would ensure compliance with the Air Navigation Order 2009 and Cap 523. Simon, if you have something in "black & white" from the CAA stating that only the wing has to be registered for foot launched paramotor, then this would contradict what I have received, and put my mind at rest. I also sought clarification as to whether the CAA have any plans to make registration compulsory, and it seems they do not. The letter I received, is copied below as to avoid any confusion. Chilly From the CAA... I understand that some insurers require some form of identification for paramotors before they will issue third party insurance. As far as I am aware, this does not have to be full UK Registration but could be any recognised identification that satisfies the requirements of the insurer. As there is no legal requirement to register paramotors in the UK we would not wish to encourage owners to register this class of aircraft as all the requirements of the Air Navigation Order 2009 as they apply to registered aircraft would then apply to the aircraft and the owner, including the requirement for full registration markings and the fireproof plate and the legal obligation to immediately notify the CAA of any changes to the information supplied at the time of registration. With flex wing or para wing aircraft, as the wing can be detached from the rest of the aircraft the wing is deemed to be the “constant” part for registration purposes. However, it is the whole aircraft that is registered and you may notice from some sub-115kg microlight designations that the wing and trike descriptions are separated by the / character. For paramotors, if it is not practical to apply the fireproof plate to the wing then it would need to be attached to the motor. There has been some discussion about the desirability of having an identification scheme for paramotors, not necessarily full UK Registration, but there are no firm plans or timescales for its introduction. If you have any further queries please do not hesitate to give me a call. Regards Robert Ferris Head of Aircraft Registration Civil Aviation Authority Tel: +44 (0)20 7453 6660 Fax: +44 (0)20 7453 6670 email: aircraft.reg@caa.co.uk web: www.caa.co.uk/aircraftregister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Gary - some excellent points - totally agree with keeping as much BS and bureaucracy out of foot-launched flying for as long as possible. Glad to hear you are back in the air and trike looks great - nice to see someone else using the EVO engine ! Mike - that is a similar response to what I got from the CAA not so long ago, hence why I was shocked at the mention of wing registration within 18 months .... My understanding is that Traffords only want some form of registration to satisfy their underwriters but this is not directly linked to the CAA. I am waiting for clarification from Traffords regarding this. My fear is it could create an even more confusing '4-tier system' with some pilots (for unknown reasons) wanting to commit to full scale CAA registration, others having to have wings registered for insurance purposes, others having no wing reg but trained and insured under the 'other system' (who I dare not mention) , and a potentially large group flying with no formal training, insurance or wing registration..... Crazy ! PS - are you coming to the Air Games again in October ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Mike, can you PM me your number I had to send a load of info to Robert yesterday so that he could contact the insurance company to try and avoid the registration process... Not spoken to him since... This could be AWESOME NEWS!!!!! SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Seems to me that it would be good to have a voluntary wing registration scheme that is acceptable by the insurance companies and the CAA so that those whom do not wish to go the BHPA route have a viable alternative without full blown CAA Registration. The scheme would need to be administered centrally maybe by the BHPA or the BMAA and a cost to cover administration etc. If this is acceptable to the insurance companies and the CAA, then a working group could be formed to put this together, come up with an acceptable scheme etc. The French pilots have wing numbers that are not too huge, but do provide adequate identification, maybe we could do something similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Seems to me that it would be good to have a voluntary wing registration scheme that is acceptable by the insurance companies and the CAA so that those whom do not wish to go the BHPA route have a viable alternative without full blown CAA Registration.The scheme would need to be administered centrally maybe by the BHPA or the BMAA and a cost to cover administration etc. If this is acceptable to the insurance companies and the CAA, then a working group could be formed to put this together, come up with an acceptable scheme etc. The French pilots have wing numbers that are not too huge, but do provide adequate identification, maybe we could do something similar. Looks like the French assign a number to a person to put on all their wings. Pictures below if it works... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Just for info the French registration numbers are as follows: The first two numbers are the department number, The following two or three letters are the unique reg for the individual. Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Hi Alan, I've always been impressed with how the FFVL organise things in France, and FFPLUM for powered flight on the numerous times I have flown there. As I understand it the wing registration forms part of the pilot rating and insurance requirements as a package. Perhaps you could briefly summarise the requirements and cost as a comparison ? (my level of French struggles with some of the more technical words) Since we already have a similar representative body here in the UK that provides training, pilot rating and insurance, it puzzles me why some people want to pay a higher price, have no formal pilot rating but all the extra hassle of working groups and additional bureaucracy, just "so that those whom do not wish to go the BHPA route have a viable alternative without full blown CAA Registration" ..... This is not a plug or attack. I have (privately) discussed with Simon his problems with the BHPA, but I'm thinking more of the average paramotorist who may currently be flying without insurance. Is it just a fear of failing the Pilot exam ? (training can be done elsewhere thanks to the alternative entry scheme) Having competent pilots, trained and rated at a certain standard just seems more attractive to me than sticking numbers on wings to obtain insurance by the 'back door'. The CAA are currently happy with PPG as it stands, but ad-hoc wing registrations may well stir things up. If that leads to registration as a formal requirement then it is more than likely to involve the Pilot rating and exams that some people seem to want to avoid. Just my thoughts - unless someone convinces me of the benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Hi Alan, The pilots license and registration are issued by the DGAC (french equivalent of CAA). To get a pilots license you have to go through a recognised instructor, training price about €900. You have to pass the written exam, entry fee €30. The pilots license costs €75. Registration documents consist of a technical file and an identification card, €20 for each. This gives your wing/motor registration number. The card is valid for 2 years and subsequent updates are free You don't have to be a member of FFPLUM but you do need a registration number to join. Once a member you have a 'License Federal', what the full benefits are I don't know, but you can then take the FFPLUM insurance. This year membership cost me €64.68 and the insurance was €54.50. This includes €5m third party cover for all of Europe. Hope this helps, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Thanks for the comparison. It seems like your annual costs are only slightly more than mine with the B*** although I think it would cost me more over there to free fly as well, with separate membership of the FFVL, whereas B*** covers both. The reciprocal / equivalence agreements work very well and the French organisation of flying sites and events is superb. Before anyone proposes a similar system here though I would want an equivalent (massive upgrade) of facilities and services provided to match ...... PS - I've just bought a Baofeng UV-5R (partly on your recommendation) and about to set up the PMR frequencies. 6.25kHz channel spacing seems OK, but not sure how to implement the CTSS tones. Don't suppose you have a link to an idiot guide somewhere do you ? Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Try this http://wouxun.us/Software/Baofeng/UV-5R ... l_size.pdf The CTCSS is set in menu 11 for Rx and menu 13 for Tx. CTCSS table on page 15. Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilly Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Just an Update... Traffords Insurance, underwritten by Lloyds of London have clarified that currently full CAA UK registration is required for the insurance to be valid. Wing only registration is not acceptable by the underwriters, nor is it available from the CAA. This means that both the wing and power unit have to be registered as a single aircraft, the wing has to carry the registration as well as a fireproof metal plate is required to be affixed to the power unit. Full compliance with the air navigation order and Cap 523. So we seem to be between a rock and a hard place. The CAA do NOT want us to register with them, but Lloyds of London insist that Full registration is held to obtain their cover. (whether it be from the UK CAA or another EU equivalent CAA) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 ... about the mag - they are desperate for articles & photo's to publish. Deano and a few others have contributed so if you send in something decent it will quite probably end up in print. I know loads of people who've had photo's and other stuff in there. Go on Sticky - organise another fly-in and I'll do photo's and a write up ..... as I'm not sure if anything from Jet Boots' bash will be fit for print ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Your fly-in was a good one dude. More of the same will be awesome. I agree that arranging one is not as easy as at first it may appear, but well worth it when you see loads of happy people SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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