dmpatanis Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Hello,i want to buy a new wing and i dont know which one. Now i have the Advance Epsilon-5,and its time to go in reflex now. I am doing free paragliding for 2years and other 2years paramotor. I am 85kilos and i have the Sky 100 paramotor engine. I love to doing cross country trip. Which one wing do you suggest me???? Dudek Nucleon Paramania Revo2 Paramania Fusion Or something else??? Thanks a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savage Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 For cross countries, it has to be the Nucleon, from what I've seen it's the fastest and most economical (when flown within the certified weight range). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 it has to be the Nucleon, Agreed. All good wings in their own right and the differences between them aren't massive, but my order of preference would be Nucleon, Fusion, Revo 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clivefreeman Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Think i would have to throw a synth in there as well. !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmpatanis Posted May 8, 2011 Author Share Posted May 8, 2011 I think for me the best is the Nucleon 31. I am 85kilos,27kilos the paramotor,8kilos fuel,5kilos reserve and accesories,8kilos clothes,and 8kilos the wing,All weight is 141kilos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 Think i would have to throw a synth in there as well. !! As good as the Synth is (and it may be easier for beginners), the Nucleon just does it all that little bit better ..... and scores fewer C's on the certification tests. For XC flights it has marginally better speed, sink rate and glide ratio, so more efficient and economical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmpatanis Posted May 8, 2011 Author Share Posted May 8, 2011 The revo2 what about??? Its for cross countrie?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 The revo2 what about???Its for cross countrie?? Good speed range but worse sink rate. Needs more engine power / rpm in level flight than the Nucleon (it is a smaller wing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmpatanis Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 Sorry but which size???for the Nucleon the 29(100-130) or 31(120-145)????? Now i am 80kilos Clothes 8kilos Wing 8kilos Paramotor 25kilos Rescue 5kg All of this is 126kg. I have the Sky 100 engine(18hp) The Nucleon doesnt calculate the fuel in the take-off weight. I want to buy one used Nucleon 31,its Ok or i must search for 29????? Its dangerous to fly in the minimun weight range??? Thanks a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 My opinion - 31 Chances are your weight will be slightly more with radio, camera, instruments + other bits you might take on XC. It is tested & certified for full weight range, so yes it is safe at bottom, middle or top of range. 29m will be tiny bit faster but need more power as you will be at max weight, so your Sky100 engine might not be enough on full speed bar. 31m will be easier to launch (especially with full tank) and less load on your engine - quieter, better fuel economy - and you can use full speed bar. Michel Carnet uses 31m (he explains why in part 2 of video: [youtubevideo] [/youtubevideo][youtubevideo] [/youtubevideo] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmpatanis Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 Ok thanks a lot. I am in two choises. In Nucleon 31(used-2years-with 30hours) or Revo2 26(used) The revo cost 1/3 more than the Nucleon but its 8 months new. The Nucleon its for paragliding???? Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Nucleon is better for PPG (especially XC) if you keep your Epsilon or another wing for PG. Revo2 is better for PG if you can only have one wing, but will use more engine power / fuel for PPG. Personally I think you need 2 wings if you are serious about PG & PPG, but only a test flight will truly answer your questions as to which is best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmpatanis Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 Finally i bought the Nucleon 31. I think its the best for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I knew it was the right choice for me after just one flight .... Look forward to hearing how you find it once you get used to the extra speed and have had a chance to play with all the different steering combinations. Worth reading the manual thoroughly and experimenting from a safe height first even though the wing is virtually bomb-proof ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dede2008 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Hey acquatix, can you elaborate a bit on fuel consumption and sink rate of Revo 2? What is your experience and tests, how much difference you found out between Revo 2 and Nucleon on your particular weight/wing size? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Hi Davide, Although I didn't conduct fully accurate scientific tests, I have flown a fair number of wings and owned a new Revo2 for 6 months, so the comparisons are averaged over a good number of flights. Mostly evening or winter flying (cold dense air) in light or nil wind near sea level, with an all up weight between 150-160kgs. Tests were with a Brauniger IQ motor vario which also gives RPM and CHT readings, plus a Garmin 76CSx GPS, and real world flying alongside other pilots on Revo's, Synthesis and Nucleon's At similar speed and trim settings the Revo always needed at least 500rpm extra to maintain level flight, which used at least 0.5 - 0.75 litres per hour more than the Nucleon. Trimmer range is slightly wider on the Revo and it can go slightly slower when they are pulled fully in, with the Nucleon at least 3mph faster at slow, neutral, full trim & speedbar settings. Best engine off sink rate on the Revo2 was around 2m/s (or worse) which often meant landing short of the target even when factoring the worse glide ratio and sink compared to other wings (motor & free flying) which give 1 - 1.2 m/s. The Nucleon gives around 1.1 - 1.2 m/s sink rate, but with a much longer glide. The problem with figures is always going to arise when comparing wings with such a big size difference, even though I was flying the largest of each (29m Revo2 compared with 34m Nucleon) roughly in the middle of the manufacturers recommended range. Paramania's figures are clearly overhyped bollox since no wing can produce the quoted figures flown at 90kg and 220kg (a range of 130kg !) whereas the Nucleon has a 35kg range (140 - 175) and gives me real world figures almost exactly as they quote for speed, sink rate, glide ratio etc. The reason for the differences is immediately apparent when you compare the 29m Revo2 with the 29m Nucleon .... they have a virtually identical surface area, span, aspect ratio, flattening %, ideal wing loading etc. Both were EN tested at a similar weight range and both have a 100% reflex profile. I believe the 29m Nucleon (or Apco Force) would give a similarly poor sink rate and fuel economy at my flying weight. This would be easy to test, but I believe people should be able to trust the manufacturer for the correct figures and certified weight range. I have total respect for Deano and the other Paramania team pilots, but the marketing hype for performance figures is BS (as I have discussed with them). Dudek go to the expense of producing more sizes with a smaller weight range so you are guaranteed to get the quoted figures. That is the real, main difference. On the plus side I still think the Revo2 has better wing graphics, crispier, more waterproof fabric and their CLE leading edge design is much better than the traditional mylars for holding shape and ease of quick concertina packing. It is quite loose in the roll axis so very easy to wingover. The Nucleon feels much more solid in flight, faster with better glide, sink rate and engine economy, plus much better wingtip steering. Doubt you will find a more honest comparison than that ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dede2008 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Well done, thank you for your time, greatly appreciated. I am wondering at this point, putting aside the marketing hype, what would the results be for a pilot with a more conservative ( ) weight. Don't get me wrong, you obviously got the right wing for you as per manufacturer's claim, which happens to be the largest ones available. It would be interesting though, and you noted it as well, to see how these two wings perform when loaded at the same wing load - and, I add, one generally considered as proper for that size. For example, I'm 70kg naked and I've always been free flying 26 size gliders, normally rated for 75-95 or 80-100 kgs. When flying paramotor certified wings, I always got 26 size as well, just with extended weight range. Wondering now if I should expect the same figures I'm used to when testing a 26 size Revo 2 and/or 27 size Nucleon (since they don't make 26) or there is clearly a performance difference - glide ratio and sink in particular - compared to both non-reflex 26s and between themselves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Yes, figures should be much more comparable (and closer) between the 26 & 27 since you will be close to the ideal wing loading on both - and surface area / aspect ratio are similar. I would still expect the Nucleon to be a tiny bit more efficient since it has 62 cells, giving a 'cleaner' profile than the 46 cells on the Revo2. You also have the advantage that most wings are designed around the medium then scaled up or down for other sizes, so you will get a wing closer to the original test model. There is lots of talk on PG forums though about larger wings being more efficient at the same loading, so I don't mind being bigger. I'm not fat by the way ( ) - just a foot or so taller than most people ...... As for glide ratio and sink rate figures, a reflex wing will never quite match the latest free flying wings - but then they don't need to under power. You will also lose a couple of points due to the extra drag of a motor (especially a larger cage) compared to how they are tested and certified - although I find the Nucleon comes pretty close and glides almost like my free flying wing. Beyond the raw figures though, both wings have a different 'feel' in the air and even launching, plus different brake pressure / travel, turn rate, pitch & roll stability, collapse resistance / recovery etc. This is probably the most important factor since different people want different things from a wing, so you really need to try both to decide which you prefer and what you are prepared to live with. Like I said earlier it only took one flight to decide the Nucleon was almost 100% perfect (for me). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmpatanis Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 How i must use the Nucleon risers??? When i want to take off i close the trimer then what to do??? When i use the brake,when the ball and when the speedbar? Thanks a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 How i must use the Nucleon risers??? I strongly suggest you read the manual first - if you did not get one with your wing just contact Dudek for a replacement. When i use the brake,when the ball and when the speedbar? This explains how to use the various trim, toggle & brake settings. http://www.dudek.eu/images/stories/pliki/skrzydla/nucleon/Nucleon-trim-usage.pdf Just use slow trim and normal brakes for your first flights, then try the different settings at a safe height. It is OK to use balls and brakes alone or together at any trim setting, but brakes work best when slow and balls work best when fast. Do not use speed bar at slow trim. When i want to take off i close the trimer then what to do??? Try running forwards with the engine on ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmpatanis Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 Ok.Thanks a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmpatanis Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Today i received my used Nucleon 31 (06-2009)and hasn't got the ball(the ALC system) in the risers. The man that he sell it to me tells me that he put it off because of a complex of the use???Its is Ok??? How i steering now in full reflex mode??? Thanks a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Today i received my used Nucleon 31 (06-2009)and hasn't got the ball(the ALC system) in the risers.The man that he sell it to me tells me that he put it off because of a complex of the use???. That is a big worry Can you post a picture of the risers to see what he has done ? There is no reason for him to mess with or remove the ALC balls - they are not complicated and if he did not wish to use them he should have just flown with normal brakes (no problem) or not bought a Nucleon !!!! The ball steering is one of the best features ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmpatanis Posted May 19, 2011 Author Share Posted May 19, 2011 Hello,i call him and he explain to me that when he was in take off back start,the red ball entanglement with the risers. He tells me that when he was in full reflex with speedbar steering with pulling a outer rope. I dont understant which rope to pull???Can you tell me???? He tells me that sent to me the ALC system to put it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatix Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 It sounds like you have met a bad seller. He is lying - the red ball does not tangle with the risers in forward or reverse launch (it is on elastic to keep out of the way). Yes the risers are more complex than a standard paraglider - because the Nucleon is an advanced wing with more controls. If he has changed the lines / risers then he has changed the wing design & certification. There are other ways to steer but without seeing what he has done I can not tell you if it is safe to use them. The manual is very good with lots of pages and colour pictures just for the risers, trimmers & steering. You need to get this before flying or changing anything. Send an email to Robert Smarz (Dudek foreign sales manager) at export@dudek.eu and he will send you a new manual in post. Hope you get this sorted so you can enjoy your flights. I think the seller should refund some of your money so you can have the ball steering fitted and checked by your local dealer or glider repair centre. Nobody should sell a wing if they have altered the risers or lines from standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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