Best oil for simonini mini2 plus

[fredodido1]

HI ALL,

Well I just bough a nirvana rodeo with a 202 simonini engine. I have been flying with a MZ-34 engine for around 100 hours usig Motul 710 oil with great result, and now the dealer tells me to use Amsoil interceptor oil... Don't know what to think...

Any info and experience will help me.

Thanks

[aquatix]

Both those oils (and the popular Castrol TTS / Power 1 racing) are good quality fully synthetic oils with little difference on the spec sheets (viscosity, additives etc). If anything, the Motul or Castrol oils are slightly higher spec.

Full details and recommendations can be found for all of them at: http://www.opieoils.co.uk/

Race bikes, boats etc often rev to double the speed of our motors but tend to do it for shorter bursts whereas we might cruise at around 5-6000 rpm for a couple of hours. Unless you put several identical Simonini engines on a test bed for a few hundred hours I doubt whether anyone could prove a dfifference between these oils.

[fredodido1]

Thanks for your reply, appreciate your input, and agree with you on the test being the only way to find out. Like you say those two oils are good and should be fine.

What rised my attention is that many people say that the TTS (castrol) will damage the engine, and the TTS is also a good oil. Some say simonini will not honored the warranty if TTS is use???

Anyway I'm not planning on using that.

When they talk about the flash point of the oil, the temp at witch the oil will burn... the Amsoil as a lower flash point than the Motul, from that can I assume it will burn better and leave less deposit?

[aquatix]

I don't think that is strictly true as it depends more on the quality of synthetic base stock, additives and detergent qualities of the oil than a degree or two of flash point. Someone far more knowledgeable than me did explain it in gory technical detail once .... which I promptly forgot.

Deposits will be formed if your mixture is even slightly out at some point in the rev range (which most are) or if the motor is left to idle for more than a few minutes, or from the quality of fuel.

For the absolute best results you would be better finding a source of AVGAS rather than garage forecourt fuel, and reducing the oil percentage accordingly. Otherwise I don't think it is worth worrying about so long as you stick to the engine service schedule.

[cobra]

simmo instructions say not to use TTS. my friend has a simmo and he uses the scooter stuff from asdas, no probs with over 50 hrs on it now

[Farmer_Dave]

I did here someone suggest that not recommending TTS sounded a bit political because most people do consider it to be good oil. At the time they changed their recommendation to semi synthetic at 33/1 , I did just that, using husquavarna blend, but found the sticky residue to cause difficult starting from cold and even filled the plug (upsidedown) once, causing hydraulic lock up. They changed from 50/1 to 33/1 saying that 2 in 10 engines fail at 50/1 and none at 33/1 . I personnally think that if carbs are set right you dont need to use as much oil. 33/1 makes a fair bit of smoke and fouls the prop.

Dave

[Neilzy]

Dave what plug do you use in your Simo as i need to get one with a resistor as its interfereing with my radio.

Neilzy

[enzo200500]

The oil discussion comes up regularly on the 2T bike forums!

We tend to advise using the best you can afford from somewhere local, unless you want to buy in bulk. I order 10ltrs at a time from Opie Oils.

Castrol TTS Power Racing is what I run in the RG500 and RGV 250's.

Motuls 710 and the 800 get very good reviews.

When pre-mixing, the viscosity rating of the oil is of no use, its only if you run an oil injection pump that you need to get the correct weight of oil.

Fully synth/ester based is probably the best way to go, depending upon wether you are racing and into regular engine stripdowns, then use the castor based oils.

Personally, I would always favour the best synthetic over a supermarket/garage shelf product anyday. Unless they are selling the brand/grade you need. Its one less thing to worry about when the engine is being pushed, either on takeoff or cruising.

A 2T engine will, due to its design, generally run best at a certain rpm range. Mainly due to the porting characteristics and exhaust pipe harmonics. Sitting on tickover for a few minutes is not going to foul the plug with these new synth oils if the carb is set correctly, with a warm engine.

I warm up the RG500 for 5-10 minutes before setting off (the neighbours love the Swarbrick pipes)! Gently building up the revs, blipping the throttle. This help to prevent one of the biggest problems when people do not warm a 2T engine corerctly - Four point seizure on the piston. This is due to the different expansion rates of the piston and cylinder/barrel.

Aqautix, I don't understand the idea of using less oil if you are running Avagas?

As an aside, be very careful of using some race fuels and the 'normal' synthetics, they do not like to be mixed..

I can see the point of using the Oxygenated race fuels or Avgas to prevent detonation when the compression is raised/squish band modified. But what would be achieved by using less oil?

Is there any point using these higher grades of fuel in these engines that seem to be in a relatively low state of tune?

If you can find a report done by Graham Bell on the effect of oil/petrol ratio, it highlights that using less oil, even synthetic, is a bad thing for the engine. All tested on a dyno for repeatability. The best mix was 30:1 that gave the least wear and let the engine run cooler. This just happened to be the 'best' for that particular engine on test mind!

If you are holing pistons in a standard engine, then something else is causing the problem. Possibly jetting sizes, plug temp rating, or ignition. There is a lot of variables to this one! But lack/low oil mix will not hole pistons. Bearings and piston seizure only.

Always on the lookout for new ideas......

http://www.rgv250.co.uk/forums/index.ph ... __hl__oils

I would generally run whatever oil ratio the manufacturer advises. Measured with a graduated syringe. Do not be tempted to add a little or a lot for 'good luck' as this can weaken the mixture - not good. Seized engine on road - Pain in the butt. Seized engine airbourne - bad, very bad.

[aquatix]

Aqautix, I don't understand the idea of using less oil if you are running Avagas?

Simples. It contains lead (tetra-ethyl lead to be precise) which as well as raising the octane rating and reducing pre-ignition (detonation) also acts as a lubricant and is better for the engine overall. Although phased out from cars due its toxicity, the authorities didn't want aeroplanes dropping out of the sky with failed engines ....

Simonini states my engine should run 3% oil with standard pump petrol, reduced to 2.5% if running Avgas or another source of leaded petrol. Kobra suggested 2.5% synthetic oil is also fine with high octane unleaded petrol and will actually run slightly better, but so far I'm happy to stick to 3% as I get almost no visible smoke or oil fouling on the prop.

[t_andrews]

The TTS oil is not recommended for the mini2 primarily for break in as it *can* impact ring seating and bearing tempering.

If you break in with a conventional oil, this issue is moot, but manufacturers just say don't do it across the board.

Who can blame them for not putting conditionals in the manual.

Less oil means more fuel, which means more fuel to cool cylinder, effectively richening mixture as the fuel is not displaced by oil for a given jet metering. Folks can lean out and seize or hole a piston when they were already on the edge of mixture just by adding "a little extra oil to be safe". Know your limits (get an egt). Most tuned engines are only a couple hundred degrees from meltdown when running well...

The best oil is the one you use regularly and mix correctly- dino oil or synthetic.

+1 on the avgas comment:

1) runs cooler

2) stores better

3) doesn't have additives (ethanol) - per the pump gas

[fredodido1]

Aqautix, I don't understand the idea of using less oil if you are running Avagas?

Simples. It contains lead (tetra-ethyl lead to be precise) which as well as raising the octane rating and reducing pre-ignition (detonation) also acts as a lubricant and is better for the engine overall. Although phased out from cars due its toxicity, the authorities didn't want aeroplanes dropping out of the sky with failed engines ....

Simonini states my engine should run 3% oil with standard pump petrol, reduced to 2.5% if running Avgas or another source of leaded petrol. Kobra suggested 2.5% synthetic oil is also fine with high octane unleaded petrol and will actually run slightly better, but so far I'm happy to stick to 3% as I get almost no visible smoke or oil fouling on the prop.

great this is all excellent info... i'm learning here... Now I think I will go with the amsoil interceptor, since my friend Benjamin Jordan went accross Canada 10,000km in three intanse month of flying on this oil... He is still using the same engine today on is nirvana. Guess i can rely on this being a good test.

Now one last question, they recommend using a semi synthetic or petrol base oil for brake in... why is that and is it nessesary? I'm just very ( precautious) with my PPG engines, alternative LZ here in the Rockies are next to nonexistent.

Thanks again

[aquatix]

Now one last question, they recommend using a semi synthetic or petrol base oil for brake in... why is that and is it nessesary?

I think it was mentioned earlier. Basically synthetic oils are too good ! Conventional wisdom recommends a semi-synth or mineral based oil to allow the piston rings to wear slightly against the cylinder bore and "bed in" to provide a better seal.

Some doubt if this is really necessary (especially with Nicasil or other coated cylinder bores) but no harm in using it for the first 10-20 litres of fuel or 5 hours running time. Try to use it all up before putting synthetic mixed fuel in the tank, as some oils don't mix well.

More important is how you run in a new or rebuilt motor. Avoid full rpm or excessive idling, allow it to warm up slowly by going gently up and down the rev range. Do this for about 15 minutes then allow it to cool down between cycles. Check all the bolts & fasteners are correct tightness, repeat a couple of times then you are ready to fly !

[fredodido1]

thanks everyone, will do my brake in with mineral oil, for 2 hours, and then switch to Amsoil 40/1 for the first 5 hours or so and then 50/1...

Tough I would share the following with you, found it while doing my research on braking-in engines... Seems to me it is spot on.

Quote:

The purpose of the "break-in" procedure is to GRADUALLY wear down the "high spots" on components such as rings, piston skirts, cylinder walls, bearings and races, etc. after a motor is fitted with new items. ALL machined parts are imperfect to a certain degree and therefore have "high" and "low" areas which must be mated to those that they roll or rub against to achieve a good running fit. Problems can arise however in the process because the mere act of "rubbing down" the high spots creates abnormally high friction. Friction creates heat. Heat creates expansion. Expansion reduces running clearances and increases friction. More friction, more heat, more expansion... Pretty soon you can see that you are rubbing off MORE than high spots on each part resulting in premature part wear (LOW spots). This is what happens when a motor is broken in too aggressively. You end up with a motor that, at the very least, has abnormally LARGE running clearances throughout. Thus you now have an unnecessarily shortened remaining life for your "new" motor accompanied by reduced performance. If the motor is really abused during early "new life" running, the tight initial clearances may get closed up completely due to heat and expansion and the rotating or reciprocating parts will SEIZE. So how to control this "running in and mating" of moving parts becomes the question...

First, before you even start the motor for the first time, do a "cranking pressure" compression test with a good quality, screw-into-the-spark-plug-hole type compression gage. Ignition off, fuel off, throttle held WIDE OPEN. Kick, pull-rope or cycle the electric starter until the gage reaches its' highest reading and stays there. Note the reading and record it. Don't expect a real high number because the rings and cylinder are not mated yet, but you should see at least 100 psi, sometimes much higher depending on the planned compression ratio, port timing (or camshaft profile if it's a four stroke), etc.. Generally speaking, with fuel, air, spark at approximately the correct time, 100 psi gage pressure and exhaust, the motor will run.

I prefer to break-in motors on a petroleum based oil and then switch to a synthetic afterwards (if it's to be done at all). There's lots of opinions on this...... for better or worse, that's mine. My feelings are that "too slippery" an oil will slow down the break-in process too much and I've even seen 600X cross hatched cylinders, chrome and Nikasil bores where the rings never seated and we attributed it to synthetic oils during break-in. If it's a two stroke, you can add a bit of extra pre-mix oil to the fuel, set the oil pump at a slightly higher than normal base setting, or both for the first tank of fuel, but I'd use a petroleum based oil.

OK. Start the motor and allow it to run at approximately 1500 rpm or so. Shut the choke off absolutely ASAP! The excess fuel that the choke supplies can wash the oil film off the cylinder walls and overheat the ring faces quickly, especially in a four stroke. ALWAYS shut the choke off ASAP on ANY motor for this same reason. NEVER let a motor run for long periods with the choke on to warm it up. NEVER ride, drive, fly or place under load any motor driven device with the choke on. It is a quick route to early death for the rings.

Check immediately for oil and compression leaks around the various gasket sealing locations. ANY LEAKS should be fixed immediately, especially head, base or exhaust gasket areas. If there are none, hold your hand against the cylinder and GENTLY vary the engine speed in neutral between approximately 1500 and 2500 rpm. DO NOT OVER REV! There is no "load" on the engine and over revving is very tough on crankshaft, bearings, etc.! When the engine is warm enough to be uncomfortable on your hand, shut it off. Again check for any leaks. Now let the motor cool down to COLD. THEN, carefully re-torque the head(s) at this time.

Now you're ready for your first ride/drive/flight/whatever. Start the motor and warm-up gently exactly as before. When the motor is uncomfortably warm on your hand, stab her in gear and gently accelerate through each gear using about 1/3 to 1/2 throttle as a shift point. DO NOT BOG or LUG the motor. DO NOT "cruise" at a steady rpm. Vary the engine speed up and down at all times. DO NOT OVER REV either! When you reach top gear immediately slow down and ride back to your origin doing the same thing. Limit your initial ride time to 5 to 10 minutes maximum, all the while touching the cylinder frequently with your hand to sense drastic overheating. ANY signs of excessive heating or abnormal engine noises require immediate SHUT DOWN and investigation/cure of the culprit. If in doubt, DO NOT ride/drive/fly back to the garage and then shut it off... TOW it back! When you're done with the initial ride, let it cool down to COLD again.

Continue this procedure gradually extending the running time to 10 minutes, then 15 minutes, etc.. You can also gradually get a bit more agressive with throttle application (slightly bigger "handfuls/footfuls" of throttle). Speed up, slow down, constantly varying throttle position and going up and down through the gears. Steady cruising at one engine speed or lugging the motor below its' powerband in a higher gear can cause overheating during break-in... AVOID BOTH! Don't worry so much about too high an rpm as VARYING the rpm. Bursts of throttle allow heating and mild expansion which in turn shaves off those high spots while deceleration allows slight cooling and contraction. Stay away from long hills, carrying a passenger or heavy loads during break-in.

After about an hour total riding/driving/flying time has accumulated, recheck cranking compression. As the rings seat, you will see the readings come up and you will also notice improvements in power delivery. Break-in is essentially complete when the readings peak and no longer get higher as more riding time accumulates. For a two stroke, this is typically one to three hours break-in time.

A four stroke has a superior oiling system and therefore breaks in more slowly. Two to five hundred miles is frequently required to completely break-in a four stroke. For a closely toleranced street four stroke it often takes 1000 to 1500 miles or even more! I dump the oil and filter in a four stroke after the first 75 miles, again at 200 miles, 500 miles, 1000 miles and each 1500 miles thereafter on a street engine. Off road and competition four strokes get fresh oil and filter every one hundred to four hundred miles with me, depending on how hard their running life is after break-in. The initial oil and filter change is done into a clean, light colored, plastic shallow pan so I can see any metal particles that drain out with it. Straining the oil through a clean, white paint filter is excellent practice. You can then drag a magnet through the oil to collect the particles that are ferrous for closer inspection of potential problems. Minor break-in particulate or "dust" is normal. I also cut open the oil filter and lay it out on clean white paper towel to see what it has trapped and again look for any signs of trouble. Yes, it's a lot of fiddling and checking but I find it infinitly preferable to engine catastrophies (and a lot less expensive!).

Once it is broken-in, you can optimize ignition timing and jetting, preferably on a dyno. During break-in keep the fuel/air SLIGHTLY rich and the ignition timing essentially stock, NOT advanced.

Even after break-in is done, always warm up the engine thoroughly before riding/driving/flying per the above procedure to avoid cold engine excessive wear or even possible "cold seizure" on liquid cooled motors (most frequently occurs in marine or snowmobile applications).

Enjoy the fruits of your intense labors...... good luck!

[BDHGC]

From BDHGC,

I have running a DragonFly  LSA  Hang Glider Tug for 900 hours at full Throttle when on Climb - Towing, replacing my ROTAX 582 at 300 hours even though the still look like new internally  ? we use Castrol  Active 2T  at 300 hours mine have have no carbon build up and you can clean the top or the piston through the Exhaust port with one wipe of a petrol rag . 

I have Bought a Nano Trike with a new Simonini Mini 2 and was told to use 25-1 I don't Mind using that for run in But it smokes too much  to use after run-in for my liking , on the odd  occasion when I have Double oiled a 582 by accident  it has drastically reduced its performance  .

 I Have 5,000 tows with my 582,s in 15 years any thoughts on a Proven Ratio for a experienced 2 stroker. ???

regards BDHGC

[alan_k]

This is the recommendation from the Simonini manual:

We recommend using a semi-synthetic oil (for example, BARDAHL with API TC specification) that, although inferior to a pure synthetic, remains mixed with gasoline in the tank for a longer period. It grants good lubrication and longer life to engine components. During the running-in stage, use an oil percentage of 3,5% and then move to 3% once the stage has been completed. The gasoline must have an octane number not lower than 95, in order to avoid preignition phenomena. Carefully mix the fuel oil in a tank is appropriate and it is better, once mixed, to use it within one week. Do not use vegetable or animal oil. DO NOT MIX DIFFERENT TYPES OF OIL. We do never recommend using Castrol TTS Oil. None guarantees by using this oil will be applied.

So looks like 33-1 after break in.