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Tandem Flying.


simon101
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Hi All

I have never taken anyone tandem before but would like to this summer. I have a pap ros 125 1400. My wing is definitely not big enough for tandem unless im taking a mouse up. I fly the ozone roadster 26 (very nice and stable by the way) i know i need the pap company system or similar. I weigh in at about 70kg when wet and only really want to take similar size people up ( girls;) ).

My question is, do i need to get a tandem specific wing? Maybe the ozone magnum as that seems to be the tandem wing of choice for many pilots. Or could I use Neilzy's rather large Synthesis, forgotten what size you fly neil?

Its a headache finding any info on tandem setups apart from the prices.

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there is bound to be an unexpecting victim somewhere!

Hopefully not in the literal sense .... :? I would strongly recommend training to get a tandem rating so you are insured for taking other people up. It is a big risk & responsibility if anything goes wrong and I've seen a few PG and PPG tandem accidents (proportionately 1000% more than solo) but thankfully nothing too serious so far.

Not being a kill joy as its something I want to do too, but I might start with PG tandem this year before doing PPG. First flights should always be done with another tandem pilot before taking a 'non flyer'.

Choice of wing is less important than the spreader bar system, which needs to be PPG specific to cope with the thrust / torque (usually with rigid separator) - normal PG spreader bars are not suitable.

The view from 5000 feet should get most girls wobbly kneed and suitably grateful :oops: and the offer of a tandem ride isn't a bad chat up line - but beware - all pretty girls have a fat, ugly mate that they will expect you to take up as well !!! :lol:

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What other reason could there possibly be ?? :D

I used to have a girlfriend who got horny after a few fast laps in the TVR .... must have been something to do with fear causing endorphine release (or the engine vibrations). Either way it was worth the extra fuel cost ..... :lol:

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I'm just wondering how many pilots on here that fly tandem actually have a tandem rating or even a ppg rating. I've only got my bhpa pg rating and never done any formal training on the motors and to be honest without sounding like i know it all ( which of course i don't, so don't have a go at me) I pick things up rather quick and converted to flying with the motor with no problems. i would like to get some training for the tandem set up and of course fly first with an experienced tandem pilot.

But of course the cost, availability of instructors locally and the time factor all point me towards just getting the gear and learning slowly with all the information and some other sensible pilots. if it was twenty years ago thats exactly what would be happening anyway and at least nowadays there is more info available and more pilots about to get good advice from.

I see by the lack of response from this thread that not many want to stick their necks out and get crucified by anyone not agreeing. Fair play. But like i said its something that I would love to try and not just for the girls!

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I'm just wondering how many pilots on here that fly tandem actually have a tandem rating or even a ppg rating. I've only got my bhpa pg rating and never done any formal training on the motors and to be honest without sounding like i know it all ( which of course i don't, so don't have a go at me) I pick things up rather quick and converted to flying with the motor with no problems. i would like to get some training for the tandem set up and of course fly first with an experienced tandem pilot.

But of course the cost, availability of instructors locally and the time factor all point me towards just getting the gear and learning slowly with all the information and some other sensible pilots. if it was twenty years ago thats exactly what would be happening anyway and at least nowadays there is more info available and more pilots about to get good advice from.

I see by the lack of response from this thread that not many want to stick their necks out and get crucified by anyone not agreeing. Fair play. But like i said its something that I would love to try and not just for the girls![/quote

Simon if you are Pg rated only do you have insurance with any one else for PPG ? as I know Pg insurance will not cover you.

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Hi Pete

Thanks for your reply. Just wondering now if there is not a rating for tandem flying then how does anyone firstly teach it and secondly why is it I see many prominent/high profile pilots flying tandem?

Should I be thinking Not many reply's to thread=Can of worms

Thanks

Simon

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PG tandem is ok but PPG tandem is not insurable as no one does a rating for it. I know I have been looking in to it for the last year or so.

If you find an insurance company that will insure tandem PPG then please let me know.

All the PPG tandem pilots I know do it with out insurance or any formal training, some just went to some one who already does it and got/paid them to help them learn.

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A certain Mrs Cath Neilzy Ryder has bagsied first circuit round the field. Bet you wanna teach me how much distance in between those spreader bars now :lol:

Pete, you or someone maybe a bit closer will be getting a customer at some point then as i cant keep waking up next to this sort of thing...I'm sure a tandem wing will help!!

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  • 4 months later...
What other reason could there possibly be ?? :D

I used to have a girlfriend who got horny after a few fast laps in the TVR .... must have been something to do with fear causing endorphine release (or the engine vibrations). Either way it was worth the extra fuel cost ..... :lol:

Must have been the lumpy Old Landrover V8 lump :-)

SW :D

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I'm just wondering how many pilots on here that fly tandem actually have a tandem rating or even a ppg rating.

Simon, I have both a PPG rating and a tandem PG licence. My tandem licence is "Air Experience Instructor" rather than just "Dual Licence" so I am licensed to instruct tandem PG pilots.

The problem BHPA pilots have in flying tandem PPG is that the rules of our association prevent us from engaging in activities that are not "approved" by the BHPA. This means if we do fly tandem PPG our BHPA insurance does not cover us.

As has been said there is currently no UK based insurance that will insure tandem PPG although there are many for Europe based pilots. Alpha (On-Risk now JAS) used to offer it up to 2008 but stopped after a high profile claim of a passenger who was badly hurt in a crash and sued the pilot. The BHPA insurers refused to support the pilot as he had no dual licence and was engaged in an "unapproved" activity. He defended himself successfully but the event left a big problem for getting tandem PPG approved by the BHPA and for insurance.

It also means UK pilots cannot compete in Uk or international competition.

The insurance issue is interesting and Simon W mentioned waivers in another thread. The question is "does the passenger voluntarily assume the risk and are they fully aware of what the risk actually is". Then there is third party insurance and the pilot or the passenger could be sued by a third party so does the passenger know this? It makes briefing the passenger and even choosing the passenger a tricky business.

I have been working some years now on a system, not just the kit but the training programme and the operating procedures risk assessments and the insurance. It takes a long time to get it done officially. Many people have to be persuaded.

Unofficially if you fly a route within an owned piece of land with the owners consent you are unlikely to be risking third party claims. It is the second party claims that you need to consider.

With the advent of the Bulldog and the forthcoming more powerful 200cc Polini engine there is now a Bulldog tandem rig in prototype (flying trials) stage, or I should say a prototype that is designed to fit a Bulldog, as it is not an official Bulldog Company project. Once this is in production there will be a training programme at Whitehorse club for instructors wishing to use tandem in training. Whether we permit other pilots onto that course will depend on the outcomes for the instructors. It could happen. But it is entirely dependent on finding suitable insurance.

Being able to take a new student pilot up and fly the circuit under dual control is a definite advantage over "first solo never having been airborne before" IMO.

However there is an awful lot to learn about tandem flying that needs to be taught if you intend to do it safely and meet all contingencies. It is totally not like flying solo and I do not think it can be self-taught without some harsh learning experiences; OK for the solo but not really fair on a "willing victim".

Francis

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The insurance issue is interesting and Simon W mentioned waivers in another thread. The question is "does the passenger voluntarily assume the risk and are they fully aware of what the risk actually is". Then there is third party insurance and the pilot or the passenger could be sued by a third party so does the passenger know this? It makes

Francis

A disclaimer would deffo NOT work in this case. It needs to be accompanied with a correctly formated / our training manual.

Joy ride type events are best avoided until insurable.

SW :D

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[there is now a Bulldog tandem rig in prototype (flying trials) stage, or I should say a prototype that is designed to fit a Bulldog, as it is not an official Bulldog Company project.

I trust this is fully certified for aviation and not just "cobbled together from bits of old junk" ..... :roll::lol:

On a serious note (and without being quoted as agreeing with Francis) there are some valid points that need serious consideration by anyone contemplating tandem, and the issue does need resolving with regard to training / licensing and insurance. I've spent 11 years working in the field of liability, negligence & litigation, and 99% of disclaimers and waivers are not worth the paper they are written on. Dressing up a tandem pleasure flight as a training exercise would only have relevance if it could be shown that the 'student' had already completed enough of the PPG syllabus to be ready for a solo flight anyway. Whilst it would be useful for training, much of it could also be taught from short hill or tow flights.

I would love to take friends up and show them what all the fuss is about but reckon a trike would be a safer platform for this than foot launch. I'm against bureaucrasy, licensing and regulation for the sake of it as there is already too much health & safety nonsense in other areas and people should be allowed to risk their own life (those who don't never truly live) but it has its place when you potentially risk someone else's safety. If the passenger truly understands the risks and is willing to accept them then it would at least be better if a system was in place to allow and insure it.

That said, a badge or piece of paper doesn't change someone's ability. There are some good pilots around but I'm not sure I would be happy to let them fly me as a passenger - but then there are some qualified drivers who I wouldn't go in a car with .... :?

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