Trimmer trouble

[poz]

It's probably a bit of a fundamental question, but I don't know the answer, so I'll ask anyway

Is it normal to need two hands to pull the trimmers in for landing etc or is it just my particular wing (Revo2).

I've just started to experiment with the trimmers. My training didn't include anything about trimmers, so I'm learning as I go along.

However, I made myself feel really sick the other day trying to pull the trimmers back in.

Any tips?

Ta v much

Dan

[t_andrews]

Can you qualify:

Need two hands

feeling sick

That is, one hand per trimmer or two needed for each??

If the latter, then perhaps your setup requires inspection and adjustment as one hand should be all that's required for each side either letting trim out or pulling it in.

Feeling sick may be attributed to your comfort level playing with trimmers or how they were applied (quickly, one side at a time).

It is often (and aptly) suggested that trimmers be left alone without 100m or more of air under you. Many don't adhere to this, but that comes with comfort and accepted risk. Generally adjustments should be incremental as it does take time for the wing to stabilize for a given setting. Zipping in or out fully can lead to a zippy elevator effect in either direction and yes, can be indeed unsettling if you are not expecting it. Lift traded for speed removes some G for a bit, and conversely pulling in trim quickly will decrease sink rate and make you heavy for a bit when applied in large amounts. A side at a time would make for some rock and roll crab action no doubt.

If you're using two hands per side, you're likely introducing some weight shift into the mix too.

If so, something's wrong with your setup, buckles, or something else.

Not saying it is without your qualification, but never heard of two hands needed per side.

[poz]

Can you qualify:

Need two hands

feeling sick

That is, one hand per trimmer or two needed for each??

2 needed for each

If the latter, then perhaps your setup requires inspection and adjustment as one hand should be all that's required for each side either letting trim out or pulling it in.

When I try to pull trimmer in, the riser pulls down instead even though I am squeezing the clip

Feeling sick may be attributed to your comfort level playing with trimmers or how they were applied (quickly, one side at a time).

I ended up feeling sick because the air was lumpy and I was struggling to adjust the trimmers

It is often (and aptly) suggested that trimmers be left alone without 100m or more of air under you. Many don't adhere to this, but that comes with comfort and accepted risk. Generally adjustments should be incremental as it does take time for the wing to stabilize for a given setting. Zipping in or out fully can lead to a zippy elevator effect in either direction and yes, can be indeed unsettling if you are not expecting it. Lift traded for speed removes some G for a bit, and conversely pulling in trim quickly will decrease sink rate and make you heavy for a bit when applied in large amounts. A side at a time would make for some rock and roll crab action no doubt. That would explain the motion sickness. I feel a bit sick just reading this (what a wimp )

If you're using two hands per side, you're likely introducing some weight shift into the mix too.

If so, something's wrong with your setup, buckles, or something else.

Not saying it is without your qualification, but never heard of two hands needed per side.

It is mentioned in another thread

http://www.paramotorclub.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5509

Cheers for the advice, appreciated muchly

[t_andrews]

I sit further enlightened.

Thanks for the link.

My method for retracting trim is to place back of index finger at the bottom of the toothed adjuster while back of fingers are against the slack under the adjuster, thumb directly above the adjuster. Then, using a rolling motion, bias the trimmer down and back using your knuckles to leverage against. There *may* be some twisting motion due to the geometry of doing this, which may overcome the lack of load on the rear risers. Also, the direction you pull the trimmer relative to the adjuster will affect effort required which may be why this works for me as the way it's pulled lifts the spring a bit versus the added friction of simply pulling down around the rod the teeth clamp to.

That said, with developments made to avoid those trimmers slipping, perhaps Paramania has increased spring tension even further to thwart slippage?

I suppose once used to this, little jabs to yank trim in become second nature and 5cm at a time shouldn't give you wacky flight characteristics, especially when done symmetrically.. I still do it slowly, but I think the fusion has second generation spring tension - perhaps Revo2 has yet a third...

Dealer input welcome on this one.

I am heavy on my wing, which may be a factor as well as there is still a line drag load in full reflex.

[aquatix]

Is it normal to need two hands to pull the trimmers in for landing etc or is it just my particular wing (Revo2).

It is most definitely the Revo2. I have discussed this with Paramania and there is no solution available.__^ (see note) When on fast trim (full reflex) there is no tension on the rear risers so nothing to 'pull against', so you need to use both hands (one to pull, the other to squeeze & hold the buckle up). This can introduce power surges if you are holding some throttle in your hand whilst adjusting, plus a bit of weight shift which can all make things a bit 'wobbly'.

The best solution is to do it with a bit of height and release the throttle first, use both hands to pull one trimmer down to neutral, and then the other. From the neutral position you should find enough tension to pull the trimmers down in the normal fashion with one hand (whilst holding the brakes & throttle as normal) to get into 'landing mode'. Make sure you don't fly too low in fast trim as you may not have time to adjust like this for an emergency landing if your motor quits suddenly.

I find the wing doesn't react adversely even if you yank one trimmer fully open and one closed, but safer to make the adjustments gradually - especially in lumpy air ! Perhaps not the best trimmer set-up for a wing marketed at beginners, and despite its safe 'B' rating and pitch stability I find it rolls a lot and is quite 'active' in even mild turbulence, although your confidence will grow with each flight.

Have you modified your brake handles and line lengths according to the safety warnings ??

(^) Note: Deano suggested twisting the risers near the buckle as you pull, which should help open it.

________ Pascal said to use a short sharp tug.

________ Emilia said it will be less of a problem once the trimmers wear in .....

[poz]

This can introduce power surges if you are holding some throttle in your hand whilst adjusting, plus a bit of weight shift which can all make things a bit 'wobbly'.

That's exactly what happened!

You're right, it's not brilliant for a beginners wing. However, I love my Revo2 so much, that I am willing to overlook this and put it down to something that will ultimately make me a better pilot.

Brake handles modified after a chat with MCJ.

Deano suggested twisting the risers near the buckle as you pull, which should help open it.

______Pascal said to use a short sharp tug.

______Emilia said it will be less of a problem once the trimmers wear in .....

Will try a combination of the 3 tips

Thanks for the help

[morgy]

I have a fusion 26. My old adjusters were fine a one handed job just reach up and pull down.. then they started to slip... I got a new set of trimmers from simon free of charge but the new ones are very hard to pull in and you need two hand whitch is a pain when trying to slow and turn into a thermal...

So i dont think it is just the revo 2 i guess they use the same trimmers for both wings????

I now tend to just yank them in as this time of year with wearing thick gloves it not easy to use your knuckle.

soon as it comes out of reflex then there is more tension on the trimmers and they work a bit better still not great.

This is the only area of my wing i am not happy about and i hope they sort it out soon.....

[helimed01]

Hi.

C'mon guys.

We want a wing that is fast for A to B, and we want a wing for easy take off and landing (slower). Everything has a trade off in aviation.

I havn't flown the Revo 2, however feel that a bit of two handed fiddling for pre landing is not a big deal for a wing with a great speed range.

Alternative is buy 2 wings, slow and fast and hope your flight plan for the day coincides with the actual weather £££££?????.

For such a minority sport I am amazed we have such a choice in equipment.

Thanks go out to the people who design and produce the equipment that allow us this magic of freedom of flight in this basic and special form.

Regards.

[aquatix]

We want a wing that is fast for A to B, and we want a wing for easy take off and landing (slower). Everything has a trade off in aviation.

Yes, one of the deciding factors in purchasing a Revo2 was the wide trim range - 70% of speed as opposed to 50% on trimmers & 50% on bar like other brands - much more comfortable & usable. Yes, the continuing development & improvement of wing profiles is great.

However, it wouldn't take much to perfect the trim system or at least improve its functionality. Like most brands it still uses the common garden luggage strap buckle. Why not use a double cam cleat system or modified teeth profile ? Why not reroute the trimmer so it pulls upwards (away from the karabiner) with one hand to set slow or squeeze to release ? Perhaps raised, coloured embroidered markings instead of the printed numbers that wear off quickly ?

Its not complaining - more a case of customer feedback towards the ongong improvements and simple changes that hardly cost anything.

Apco were quick to introduce a 'new & improved' change to the risers on the new Force after initial customer feedback, so it is easily done ....

[morgy]

and its also not about adjusting the trimmers before take off it's about using two hands during flight. I use to be able to hit a thermal and pull with one hand each trimmer at the same time and i could hit most thermals most of the time. Now on the other hand i have to use two hands for each trimmer doing one at a time. So i have missed more and more and have to spend time looking for it again..

[poz]

Hi.

C'mon guys.

We want a wing that is fast for A to B, and we want a wing for easy take off and landing (slower). Everything has a trade off in aviation.

I havn't flown the Revo 2, however feel that a bit of two handed fiddling for pre landing is not a big deal for a wing with a great speed range.

Alternative is buy 2 wings, slow and fast and hope your flight plan for the day coincides with the actual weather £££££?????.

For such a minority sport I am amazed we have such a choice in equipment.

Thanks go out to the people who design and produce the equipment that allow us this magic of freedom of flight in this basic and special form.

Regards.

I was definitely not complaining about my wing. As I said I absolutely love it to bits. After all, it takes in its stride all of my beginners cockups without any fuss, and as a result it inspires confidence.

If I had to make a choice between slipping trimmer buckles or very firm trimmer buckles, i'll go for the latter any day.

I simply wondered if I was doing something wrong.

Happy camper

[pete_b]

and its also not about adjusting the trimmers before take off it's about using two hands during flight. I use to be able to hit a thermal and pull with one hand each trimmer at the same time and i could hit most thermals most of the time. Now on the other hand i have to use two hands for each trimmer doing one at a time. So i have missed more and more and have to spend time looking for it again..

If your looking for thermals then surly you would be on slow trim anyway? unless you are racing to the next turn point/ thermal