Insurance

[bignos]

Hello,

what is the state of play with paramotor insurance now?

i need it to fly in at a local airfield but dont know where to get it from....

[garyfreefly]

good question I am all ears ..... somebody must know something

[Guest]

At the moment, Joint Aviation Services are the only company that will insure your 3rd party liability.

SW

[Neilzy]

Got mine with Aviation Services no problem at all good price with reasonable cover to.

[skybound]

Dare I say it, if you can domonstrate your hrs and sit the exam you could go the alternate route through the BHPA. Failing that then Joint Avaition.

Clive

[Guest]

We are Paramotor Pilots though mate

Joint aviation Services is the largest Aviation insurance company in the UK.

Just to be clear though, what would I have to do for the 'alternate / no training required' route?

IF all I have to do is tell them I have 50 hours and sit a paper exam (which I believe has been the case at a few Paramotor Fly-ins) then no thanks, as there is no value to a rating which get's given away, every one of my students can be proud to have there PPG1 rating and safe in the knowledge they have earned it by 'learning' how to fly a Paramotor. We will NEVER give our rating away, thus, keeping our standard higher.

( also, ask the BHPA members who DID do the entire training process how they feel about the situation of giving them away.)

To me it looks as though the BHPA are playing a numbers grabbing game at the cost of de-valuing there entire training structure.

SW

[paulmahony]

Dear Simon,

As the BHPA's most senior Paramotor Instructor, CFI and examiner and as I am also on the BHPA's Flight Safety Committee as the Paramotor Member, I am a tad disturbed and disappointed that you should be telling your membership things which are simply not true.

I have access to the database of all BHPA Members including the Alternative Entry Members - indeed; I have probably signed up more than most. I can assure you that absolutely no-one just does 50 hours, sits a paper exam and is then given a BHPA Paramotor rating. The BHPA has never given anything away in the off-hand manner which you suggest and I would ask you to either prove that point or formally retract that statement.

There is a written down procedure for Alternative Entry into the BHPA from the BHPA Technical Manual that is followed and it is followed religiously so that the Members' insurance interests and reputation of the BHPA remains intact. The actual practical assessment carries far more weight than someone presenting 50 hours in a log book and passing a multiple choice exam. I have had many pilots from so-called independent schools either hiring my kit or asking for Alternative Entry, and I am appalled by their lack of both basic theory and practical skills. Clearly, things are not being taught very well in these schools.

Furthermore, BHPA SPHG ratings are awarded to fully rounded "Pilots" who have achieved that status - not simply individuals who have learnt to fly a paramotor. I would also be very interested to see proof of how your PPG1 rating is of a higher standard than a BHPA SPHG Pilot (Power) rating.

In fact, many pilots who have come from 'alternative schools' and submitted themselves for Alternative Entry into the BHPA regrettably had to be told that their practical and theory knowledge was woefully short of the mark. Many, for instance, have never been correctly told by their instructors about the fundamental cause of carb icing and the correct procedures in dealing with it believing it to be due to cold temperatures and not due to the moisture content of the air and that closing the throttle is the corrective action.

These candidates are usually given some theory tuition and practical hints and tips on how to improve their flying skills before being re-assessed. Interestingly, there are only about two or three BHPA instructors able to award a BHPA Alternative Entry to a pilot. I have done quite a few and have carried this out at fly-ins. More than likely, I have seen the candidate before or he is known personally to me or I have already carried out the practical assessment. Therefore, only the log book evidence and sitting the written exam was required. Are you suggesting I, or any other BHPA Instructor, gives a BHPA SPHG rating away simply to 'grab numbers'? Have you any evidence that we are de-valuing our entire training structure? I think you are very sadly mistaken.

In fact, we have recently run a BHPA Paramotor Instructors' Course in which 10 Independent / ex-BMAA paramotor instructors voluntarily presented themselves on a 7 day course to become BHPA Paramotor CFI's / Schools. They all worked very hard and paid a lot of money to undertake the course but when they saw the standard that had to be reached in their practical, theoretical and administration knowledge, most clearly realised that they still had some way to go. Therefore, no full Senior Instructor / CFI-ships were awarded although there were a few Instructor, Coach and Senior Coach licences attained. More importantly, further training and facilities have been instigated to help them all 'jump through the necessary extra hoops' and raise their standards. I have every confidence that they shall all achieve their goals. Interestingly, they all said how much they had learned during the week and that they never realised there was so much involved in becoming a BHPA instructor.

I find it quite interesting that you have never asked any BHPA Senior Instructor or Examiner to come and independently examine your Instructor Courses. I offer my services if you should wish to do so in the future. After all, I have known paramotor qualifications awarded to me by a CAA-recognised National Association, I run a full time BHPA School, I am a CAA flying Instructor and have a reputation that, I believe, will withstand scrutiny. As with Piers, I am also an ex-BMAA Paramotor Instructor.

In the meantime, although it is your forum and I am a staunch supporter of free speech, may I ask you kindly to refrain from posting things which are untrue and damaging? I am always available by 'phone or email should you wish to find out exactly what the facts are 'from the horses mouth' as it were.

Thank you.

Paul Mahony

BHPA CFI

BHPA FSC Paramotor Member.

CAA Flying Instructor

France: +33 699 574 933

UK: +44 (0)7791 029472

[Guest]

2009 Pie and Peas, Mike Silvester (to name one of many) I do believe the exam paper was also completed in pencil.

SW

[Guest]

"I find it quite interesting that you have never asked any BHPA Senior Instructor or Examiner to come and independently examine your Instructor Courses. I offer my services if you should wish to do so in the future. After all, I have known paramotor qualifications awarded to me by a CAA-recognised National Association, I run a full time BHPA School, I am a CAA flying Instructor and have a reputation that, I believe, will withstand scrutiny. As with Piers, I am also an ex-BMAA Paramotor Instructor."

I find it quite odd that you would expect us too?

SW

[Guest]

Now....

You have had your say, unedited (except for removing your links) and I have had my say. Also unedited.

I am always happy to talk to people about the PMC and would invite you 'once again' for lunch the next time your in the UK.

This forum is not the place for extended ranting / tit for tat, so after our meeting please feel free to post again, as will I.

You can PM me here or email simon@

I trust that you are a nice enough guy to understand the 'nice' vibe in here and look forward to lunch.

SW

[garyfreefly]

In my opinion .......the BHPAs Voice the magazine Skywings is a very good read with nice vibrant colours...

its possibly the only good thing the BHPA does.....

(Please note that this is only my ) OPINION..

[garyfreefly]

And another thing while I am having a say No licence or training is required to fly paramotors in the UK......However it would be Stupid to do so

I also issue licences Its the Welsh paramotor LIcence.....Nobody from the BHPA or the BMAA or the CAA has ever checked out my training schedule....but as Simon says why should they

as at the moment there is no requirement to do anything .....

Ps one of my lessons is to look around before making any manover....this is most important

especially when flying with others low along a beach

[ladyb]

Simon

"2009 Pie and Peas, Mike Silvester (to name one of many) I do believe the exam paper was also completed in pencil"

And you point is? Mike failed the exam! he was not looking for alternative entry, he was a BHPA free fly pilot and club coach of many years, he already had insurance and had made arrangement to resit his BHPA exam to gain his additional PPG Pilot rating, something he held in high regard, as well as being a strong supporter of PMC.org.

K

[paulmahony]

Dear Simon,

Thankyou for the invitation to have lunch. I will endeavour to try and make a rendevous during one of my infrequent visits to the UK.

Just out of interest, I myself was not at the Pie & Peas bash in 2009 and so I am unable to answer your remark that Mike Sylvester completed his exam paper in pencil. Maybe whoever invigilated his exam did not have any pens to hand although it does state on the Answer Sheet that it should be completed in ink. However, as long as the answer sheet was completed and signed, this would have been sent back to the BHPA Office for marking - whether in pen or pencil. I don't quite see your connection between your allegation that BHPA ratings seem to be given away with scant regard and Mike doing his exam in pencil?

As for you wondering why you might ask a BHPA CFI to come and be an examiner on one of your instructor courses, I would have thought that obvious if you wanted to maintain a completely independent validation to your courses by someone who has current training licences - both CAA & BHPA. As an ex-BMAA instructor, I know from personal experience that we were never independently examined nor have ever been revalidated. And your other 'examiner' (who, incidentally, I prevented from bring uncertified wings to the National Champoinships for pilots to demo) was 'asked' to leave the BHPA some years ago.

Hypothetically, if any of your instructors had an accident / incident whereupon the AAIB or Police (and the BHPA - as we have an MOU with the AAIB to undertake the investigation of serious PG/ HG & PPG accidents) were called in to investigate, don't you think that one of the first things to be examined would be the qualifications of the people who "signed off" the aforementioned instructors. I know the parents of the badly injured - or possibly dead - pilot would be more than interested - as would their lawyers.

And may I just answer "garyfreefly's" rather cryptic post about the need to have a good look out before committing any manover (sic) especially when flying with others low along a beach. Gary is, of course, alluding to the incident in 2001 (which can be seen on the Colonel Basir's Flying Circus DVD) whereupon I executed a sharp left turn into the path of another pilot causing him to land at the water's edge. May I say that I wholeheartedly agree with your observation Gary and I put my hands up in admitting that it was gross pilot error on my part. However, could I just draw your attention to the ANO's Collision Avoidance Rules (Rule 17) - which SW has even put on this website for everyone to read - in that "it is forbidden to formate on another pilot or fly in close formation with another pilot unless both Aircraft Commanders have agreed to do so." The other pilot, Mr Bailey, closely formated on me without prior consent and will be the first to admit therefore, that both pilots were equally to blame on the incident. I hope you teach that one in your Air Law lectures, too, Gary.

Kind regards to all,

Paul Mahony

[Guest]

My point is,

You can go to a fly-in say you have 50 hours and sit an exam. Ask the person running the exam if he had ever seen Mike fly a paramotor even once. I already know the answer to that of course.

Any way...

It looks as though we may have some sort of meeting in the making with the PMC / BHPA so lets leave it at that for now please.

I hope your both well

SW

[Guest]

Paul,

Our system protects us very well in a legal situation. Please wait until you have seen it before you make assumptions about its content or legal standing.

The PMC also has a legal advisor who happens to be a top London Lawyer and very good friend. She has been through the PMC manual. She is 'qualified' to say weather or not it is of good legal standing so to quote you back, please make sure you have solid facts before comments like this.

With you being the Chairman of the BHPA I just cant see how you can be considered independent by the PMC. Would you ever ask one of us to PE your courses? I may be missing something here so happy to listen.

SW

[ladyb]

50 hours and sit the exam

Applied to "alternative entry" not "additional rating" different requirements/hours/evidence was required, Mikes past knowledge/hours/experience in PG would have been taken into consideration along with current PPG.

Enjoy your meeting.

K

ps I'm good thanks

[garyfreefly]

I feel I must respond to Mr Mahonys comments.....

I too dont like it when somebody sneeks up behind me......to Formate.....

especially if its a male

and as you said it was many years ago and its water under the bridge.....

or shall we say ( paramotor under the water ).....

Every now everybody makes errors its those mistakes that teach us all to become better pilots

[tommcb6016]

Politics aside, I'm supposedly still insured by onrisk.... although I cant get hold of anyone to change my adress details

Maybe I should get insurance from jas instead.

Do they want to see log books ?(mine are not up to date 0

[Guest]

As with any insurance company they will take your word for it. In the event of any claim they will most likely ask for recent flight logs.

SW

[tommcb6016]

ahh just looked at the jas website and they are dealing with my Alpha policy so will call them..

[ibbio]

tit for tat in a big way.

im not really interested in any organisation for paramotors, but when it comes to insurance it needs to be worth something and gettin the correct answers matter. ask the BHPA for accurate names and figures and details of there insurance they have paid out on. no answer why i wonder?

Ive dug very deep and spent money with lawers regarding insurance and its a very shady area, id like to know the lawer simon claims to have because she must be some lawer to say you are protected and can understand the law on paramotors without a licence which has no set procedure in place.

Ive asked this information before but it never came..

I have only mentioned the facts of two questions i have asked which clearly matter regarding insurance from both parties and i never got the answers which i would expect if i was going to be taking insurance with any of them.

[Guest]

I cant agree more,

The world of insurance is a mine field, I have been talking to them for the past 2 years and its doing my head in. LOL

SW

[ibbio]

And your other 'examiner' (who, incidentally, I prevented from bring uncertified wings to the National Champoinships for pilots to demo) was 'asked' to leave the BHPA some years ago.

this amazes me what gives people like him the right to say who can bring anything anywere, it really frustrates me, its a non licence sport, this man carries on like he ownes the sport and invented it,

I gained permission to fly in class d airspace and asked the CAA about the BHPA and what difference it would make if i had a rating regarding obtaining permission to fly from within airspace,,,, i felt daft cos they laughed and said it maked no difference whatsoever, it is a free sport and rating are not really of any value I said well they have meeting with you lot over paramotors dont they , again he laughed and said no not at all we have no interest in the BHPA, yes we sometimes direct them towards the BHPA only because they have an interest in paramotors and paragliding not because we support them, i asked a few more questions which i dont remember off hand but was told any queries regarding flyin make them the first ones to speak to to get an accurate answer,

[tj]

I guess at the time the BHPA may have been the major source of information! Now through the internet and sites like this, your sources ate really multiplied. Because the sport is u.regulated, you'll probably get some co.flicking answers.

Regarding insurance, as long as they are a 'legal' insurance provider, I guess they can provide Insurance for anything they want, regardless of its regulated status. This status just makes it more risky. Risk = cost.

Tj