irm750 Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 How should a new guy lay his wing out when the wind is variable? All of our students know the answer to that question. SW I believe the answer is 'several times' Lol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 LOL Muppet.... SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted July 23, 2010 Author Share Posted July 23, 2010 SimonW - a wonderful non-answer!!! If the wind has no set direction then you can only take a stab at what the most likely direction is and wait for it to coincide. This discussion has nothing to do with what your students do or don't do it's about whether split A's can allow a bigger tolerance for wind variation. However, you felt it necessary a year or so ago to offer specific training to anyone with a Revolution to try and ease their nil/low wind launching woes after discussion by your students that they were struggling. Jon Norton - you hit the nail on the head with the truth (rather than the idealised answer). Pete B - ALC makes life easier than tip steer so presumably you won't buy/fly a wing with ALC just in case the next wing you buy/fly doesn't have it. I have been thinking about my comment about trying my Revo on Dudek risers... I have the equipment to modify my existing Paramania risers to incorporate split A's so to make the comparison as direct as possible I shall look at going down that route. Have a few other projects to finish off first though. Much better IMO to be someone who actually acts on these ideas than someone who just theorises or says 'cos I just don't like it'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 I offered low / nil wind indoor training for anyone with any wing to be fair.. Also, it is about students because you asked about new pilots, I teach every day and have for 4 years so am using them as my reference point which I also think is fair. To answer as best as I can by text... 1. You lay the wing out perfectly flat into the general direction of the wind. 2. If when you have clipped in and are ready to go the wind is not pointing at you, you have two options, option a) Wait, if the wind is moving around, wait for it to point at you or b) do a cross wind take off. If its a light breeze it is of less relevance which direction 'exactly' it is coming from. I am not sure what your beef is here to be honest? I agree with Pete, I have flown loads of different wings some split some not and I disagree with you that it makes any significant difference at all a decent technique IS the real answer here. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted July 23, 2010 Author Share Posted July 23, 2010 You and Pete have no difficulty launching with attached A's, that's no surprise. Here's a sample of quotes from the less experienced end of the scale... From... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1888 Quote Mike1714... Nil wind launches - I just have trouble forward launching with the Paramania Revolution. You get forward motion and then BANG you hit a brick wall!!!! Quote irm750... Initially I struggled like a b*****d to forward launch my revo. I was left on the ground when there was light/nil wind, scratching my head and wondering what I was doing wrong. The frustration just built more with every failed launch until I developed a bit of a Nil-wind-o-phobea, hoping for reverse conditions and dreading lighter winds. It was only when I specifically asked for someone to watch my attempts and they said that the leading edge was folding under that the penny finally dropped. I think that I had been subconciously putting more and more pressure on the A's with every failure in the mis-apprehension that this would overcome the problem. Quote Macey2kk... i have to admit that im developing that fear -- i havent tried too many times yet -- but when there is nil wind im reluctant to have a go... Quote AlanHinSaudi... I'm pleased to read that I'm not the only one that struggles with forward launches. These people are not muppets, they are regular users who struggle with the same things we all struggled with despite best attempts of set up and trying to learn how to handle the A's. My 'beef' is that when there is a possibility to design out a feature that when not quite aligned with the wind (remember the variable wind days) then it would be in the interest of the end user to incorporate it. Alternatively someone buying these style wings should be armed with the understanding why they may need to pay particular attention to their set up on certain days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 SPete B - ALC makes life easier than tip steer so presumably you won't buy/fly a wing with ALC just in case the next wing you buy/fly doesn't have it. Much better IMO to be someone who actually acts on these ideas than someone who just theorises or says 'cos I just don't like it'! Not sure what you think of me here?. I have not said that I dont like anything, I had a reaction for 3 years I will buy any wing if I like the way it flys, my first wing was an eagle genie (no split As) supposed to be the one of the very first reflex type wings. The second wing I had was a reaction (split As) and I liked that one too. I now have a Fusion which I love flying. I do not sell wings, I dont have ANY preference to any manufacturer and will fly any wing (yes even one with ALC)and if I do find it better that does not mean I will buy it or not. Test flown many other wings all have pros and cons, pick the one that YOU get on with best be that split As or not ALC or not The thing is these little differences are insignificant to me with regard to the overal likes or dislikes of a wing. I am working on a few different designs at the moment not because I cant theoris or dont like it but because I think I can improve it, as you are doing with the riser set up. As I said horses for courses you do what you think you can to improve forward launches in nil to light variable winds and I will carry on with the things I think I can improve on I will do what I can on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 You and Pete have no difficulty launching with attached A's, that's no surprise. Here's a sample of quotes from the less experienced end of the scale...From... viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1888 Quote Mike1714... Nil wind launches - I just have trouble forward launching with the Paramania Revolution. You get forward motion and then BANG you hit a brick wall!!!! Quote irm750... Initially I struggled like a b*****d to forward launch my revo. I was left on the ground when there was light/nil wind, scratching my head and wondering what I was doing wrong. The frustration just built more with every failed launch until I developed a bit of a Nil-wind-o-phobea, hoping for reverse conditions and dreading lighter winds. It was only when I specifically asked for someone to watch my attempts and they said that the leading edge was folding under that the penny finally dropped. I think that I had been subconciously putting more and more pressure on the A's with every failure in the mis-apprehension that this would overcome the problem. Quote Macey2kk... i have to admit that im developing that fear -- i havent tried too many times yet -- but when there is nil wind im reluctant to have a go... Quote AlanHinSaudi... I'm pleased to read that I'm not the only one that struggles with forward launches. These people are not muppets, they are regular users who struggle with the same things we all struggled with despite best attempts of set up and trying to learn how to handle the A's. My 'beef' is that when there is a possibility to design out a feature that when not quite aligned with the wind (remember the variable wind days) then it would be in the interest of the end user to incorporate it. Alternatively someone buying these style wings should be armed with the understanding why they may need to pay particular attention to their set up on certain days. NO one said they were muppets. My phone is on 24\7 and the forum is here there is no need for anyone to have a problem with forward launches on any wing, you just need to lay out slightly differently and have FULL COMMITMENT. As far as I am concerned the biggest problem is that they think they are going to fail the launch so they will, you have to be 100% committed. Your instructor should have showed you and demonstrated how to do low variable wind forward launches, but then if he only uses wings with Split As he is not going to teach you any other way so when you change to a wing with out them your stuffed. So what you are saying is If a design feature on one thing makes things easier to use then every one should do it that way! I dont agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnorton Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 Pete, Simon just called me a muppet, which I took in jest. But if I am a Muppet, is the person who taught me the Muppet Master. Come on, surely if the wind is really varying, you will sometimes have to reposition it irrelevant of which wing you have. I have a revolution and if the wind is say up to 45 degrees off I can get the wing up and turn into it, but any more than that and I would wait or move it. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 I have seen 3 of the people listed above carry out a perfect light wind forward launch (and have them on vid I do believe!) So what did they do wrong in the early days that they are not doing now, maybe they have split there 'a''s now ??? Also, pulling up the posts above means nothing as they have no comparison. I fly and own both Dudek and Paramania wings i also sell them both. I could not care a toss who makes my wing to be honest (or more what brand is stuck on to it) as long as it feels good to ME I am happy. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 Pete,Simon just called me a muppet, which I took in jest. But if I am a Muppet, is the person who taught me the Muppet Master. Come on, surely if the wind is really varying, you will sometimes have to reposition it irrelevant of which wing you have. I have a revolution and if the wind is say up to 45 degrees off I can get the wing up and turn into it, but any more than that and I would wait or move it. Jon FFS, I can not believe that I am even posting this. It was so CLEARLY ment in jest. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnorton Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 FFS, I can not believe that I am even posting this. It was so CLEARLY ment in jest. SW No response was expected, as I said it was taken in jest. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted July 23, 2010 Author Share Posted July 23, 2010 I'll try to bring this clearly painful subject to a close with some basic facts to let people understand the choices they have... Some riser sets allow you to launch with the lift centered with less asymmetric leverage to take the wing off sideways. Other riser sets require the whole wing to be lifted so they can catered for by either being more specific about precise wind direction or laying out the wing in a V or similar. If nothing else I hope people are now at least more aware what the difference in the riser styles does. Hopefully understanding the above will allow people to deduce the best way to tackle launching their wings in trickier conditions as the quotes given show that previously instructed people still struggle. There, some simple points with no spin to let end users consider for themselves. I've had enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 "PAINFULL" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyfreefly Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 just out of curiosity .......do you teach powered launches or unpowered launches.....? reason I ask is ...in the old days I always struggled with none powered launches....which was the way I was taught..and told that it was the correct method not until the wing was overhead could I apply (the forbidden fruit) POWER .....I must have had a failure rate of about 9 out of 10 it really pissed me off it didnt matter if I used/had split A risers or not I still dreaded the forward.... once I started to use the power launch there was no looking back.....it suits me fine I dont know if I would have ever left the ground on those perfect nil wind days with out it sometimes on a zero wind day with the sock not even moving....I can get off the ground in 2-3 steps happy times ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted July 23, 2010 Share Posted July 23, 2010 just out of curiosity .......do you teach powered launches or unpowered launches.....?reason I ask is ...in the old days I always struggled with none powered launches....which was the way I was taught..and told that it was the correct method not until the wing was overhead could I apply (the forbidden fruit) POWER .....I must have had a failure rate of about 9 out of 10 it really pissed me off it didnt matter if I used/had split A risers or not I still dreaded the forward.... once I started to use the power launch there was no looking back.....it suits me fine I dont know if I would have ever left the ground on those perfect nil wind days with out it sometimes on a zero wind day with the sock not even moving....I can get off the ground in 2-3 steps happy times ..... Both Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted September 13, 2010 Author Share Posted September 13, 2010 New riser set is now in place giving the ability launch with either A risers together (as standard) or split. Have also fitted ALC to the Revo. Will be flight testing over the next month and will report the results good or bad. Time to see if a silk purse can be made from a sows ear. Ok it's not that bad but it could be better (eg the tip steering kit that nearly killed me but the manufacturer isn't interested!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 13, 2010 Share Posted September 13, 2010 Dude, I dont want to rub you up the wrong way with this comment so please do take it as intended.... But have you considered, that the equipment which failed you / was not pre flight checked correctly has been tested by the worlds top pilots for hundreds of hours and thousands of them have been sold with no reported accidents. The reason I say this is because... A) you will now have to test your own kit to the same standard, full frontal, stall and so on to know fully if it is a safe mod. B) your wing will no longer hold any recognised test standard. The reason this 'could' be a problem for you is that is a condition of my / all if not mistaken insurance policies (effectively making any insurance void) That would mean that I could not let you fly from our site due to insurance implications and I am sure that most other site users / owners if they check there insurance will say exactly the same. should you hurt yourself or worse (others) during or after your 'unofficial test' phase it would be a legal nightmare. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macey2kk Posted September 16, 2010 Share Posted September 16, 2010 As i have been quoted..... Just for the record.... The only reason i don't like nill wind launches is cos my cyclone 294 weighs as much as a small bus!! Nothing to do with my a's But it's been fun reading this thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.