davieboy33 Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 I have been trying to get into this sport for a year now... listened to lots of advice from lots of people which was all good. buy a new wing and a second hand motor, 90% of this sport is all about ground handling that sort of stuff. So last week after many months of saving i bit the bullet and ordered a Paramania Fusion 26 brand new... got a danm good deal too.. thx..you know who you are... Obviously i was looking at the eBay stuff but didn't want to go down that route for a canopy .... BUT now i'm looking for a motor plus a cheap as chips Harness that i can use for ground handling. All was good at first there seems to be a few bits to choose from.... Then i read a few post's on this site about eBay Scammers and now have completely lost the bottle to bid on anything...lol... ok ok its not that bad and i am not that worried about bidding on eBay but I would like to thank this site for opening my eyes a little, I almost certainly was not looking for scammers in the paramotor world on eBay but now have a much healthier approach to what i look at on ebay and what i dont... Congrats on a great Site and helpful friendly community. Dave.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 To confirm, It was not me who sold a Fusion to a new pilot! Whoever sold you that wing should have there dealership taken away from them. It is not a wing for new pilots. It's no wonder they don't want you to post the name, it's not just e-bay you need to look out for, you have just been sold a wing which requires good piloting skills and at least a 50 hour a year pilot to fly it. I for one would not teach a new pilot on an intermediate wing either, nor would any half decent instructor worth there salt. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cambodia Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 (edited) Simon,I have had my Fusion for about a year now and I am still at a loss to understand why it is a 50 hour a year canopy. It is my 3rd wing but it seems no harder to fly than my Airwave Harmony. I have flown in a variety of conditions and when its bumpy in full trim its rock steady. If you fly hands off in fast trim as the manual suggests there is very little active flying anyway and the wing is pretty good without any help from me. It takes off easily and is predictable and lands well. Am I missing something? I appreciate there is a reason for the 50 hour guideline and you guys have a lot more experiance than me but what sort of nasty suprises await a low airtime pilot? Edited March 10, 2010 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobra Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Jeez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgrant Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Dave, probably not what you wanted to hear from Simon, but he's right. The Fusion is EN 'C', thats a too hot a wing for a beginner. As for Ebay, If you bid on a motor, pick one where you can collect it and take a mate with you. Then you can see it running and give it a good going over before parting with cash. If it is not as described, walk away. I'd rather get bad feedback than buy a pig! I recently went from London to Inverness with a friend to get a Pap that he won on Ebay! There are good secondhand wings about, and as you are going to be thrashing and dragging it about while learning are not a bad idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macey2kk Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 there is a lot of fuss about ebay at the moment... but its only fair to point out that ebay makes it quite clear about how to pay for items, bid on items and to always respond to questions through the ebay system. - paying by paypal via your credit card will also give you double safeguard - not only with paypal, but with your own card issuer too. the system is there to safeguard both parties.. so follow the rules, take the advice thats readily available and you will mitigate the chances of being stitched... personally ive been an ebayer for years and never had a problem - many items being thousands in value..i just paid 2k for a bike last week without hitch. as with anything of great value, and secondhand, you should wish to view the item first anyway, and if they wont allow it, then walk away regardless of whether it may be genuine or not, after all, if the seller is honest good to deal with they wouldnt mind anyway. yes i do feel for the guy that got ripped off and im not being dismissive as i had exactly the same reply from a seller once on a motorbike i wanted - which was so good a deal it couldnt be missed... what made me suspicious is that they sent an email saying the goods would be despatched from the ebay clearing warehouse... well we all know that ebay doesnt have a clearing house ( or do we ? )..plus the guys spelling was horrendous, and not exactly english in its tone if you get my drift.. be vigilant, and remember, deals that are too good to be true usually are, and if they are not -- someone else will probably have got there fisrt!!.. happy bidding......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobra Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Now thats sound advice. Stick to the system, sometimes its hard and I myself have been bit with bikes buying off ebay and they turn out to be total death traps. I will follow the rules and paypal in future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poz Posted March 10, 2010 Share Posted March 10, 2010 Simon,I have had my Fusion for about a year now and I am still at a loss to understand why it is a 50 hour a year canopy.It is my 3rd wing but it seems no harder to fly than my Airwave Harmony. I have flown in a variety of conditions and when its bumpy in full trim its rock steady. If you fly hands off in fast trim as the manual suggests there is very little active flying anyway and the wing is pretty good without any help from me. It takes off easily and is predictable and lands well. Am I missing something? I appreciate there is a reason for the 50 hour guideline and you guys have a lot more experiance than me but what sort of nasty suprises await a low airtime pilot? This "Fusion" business really needs to be cleared up once and for all. Maybe experienced pilots aren't seeing it from the perspective of a beginner, so, as a beginner with an 8 day course under my belt and very little experience, I am looking to buy a wing that ticks the following boxes: Comes up nicely. Easy and to launch, even in nil wind. Stable in the air. Stable in turns. Good speed range. Slow to land. Potential to do more with the wing as my experience grows, without having to shell out for another wing. Does this describe the Fusion? because I have read so many comments on this forum that describe it exactly as per above. Simon, you in fact you have highlighted the fact that it lands slower than a dhv1 paraglider. I gather the wing is much less docile than say a Revo and is probably incredibly responsive and needs a delicate touch. Sorry if I'm not getting the point , but I need someone to point out specifally, what would be waiting for me in the sky that would make me wish I'd settled for a Revo. Maybe someone will use the 'powerful motorbike and new rider' comparison. I ride a Blackbird and would not recommend this bike to a beginner.... because the sheer physical size and power would make it a real handful. I'm not doubting the advice so much as wishing to fully understand the warnings more clearly, especially in light of Cambodia's post. Would love to clear up the con-fusion Cheers Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 ...but Dan, you have coveniently left out the all important question "Does it require an experienced pilot in the event of a collapse?". We can all pick and chose the statments that suit our case. Simon is 100% correct to be concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 Its not that its a dangerous wing that is going to do something to you. Its the other way around. Maybe try asking yourself why as a newbie you want to fly a wing designed for an intermediate pilot (as per the manufactures recommendations (two of the best pilots in the world!). That in it's self is a bad piloting / instructor decision. There is little to no brake travel. It responds very quickly to input (even the wrong input) DHV 1/2 wings hve long travel and slow input response, which in turn gives YOU more time to think. In a tight turn it takes more 'time and height' to re gain flight stability. Minor collapses are more likely in rough conditions, and when you have a tip collapse the wing will respond to it more ( a tip collapse very quickly turns into a fairly tight turn that requires fairly instant response from the pilot.) Its not that there will be a problem during normal flight, it's when it goes wrong. For a newbie pilot, the Fusion will be a much more stressful flight overall, so why would you want that? Unless you are going to use the Fusion for it's 'extra' dynamic behavior (which as a new pilot you wont be) you are not only safer on the Revo but will find it more fun. People will teach you on it, people will welcome you to there flying field without having to lie about your air time. and so on..... The above are just a few good reasons for you to think about. The one I will point you at the most is the manufactures recommendations as I say 2 of the best pilots in the world, AND they could sell more by opening the market up to new pilots, ask yourself why don't they? I will try to get Pascal to write a few words here. Also, Whitters will be a good person to talk to, very experienced but flewn the Fusion, and the Revo and is sticking to the revo due to the dynamic nature of the Fusion. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poz Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 . There is little to no brake travel. It responds very quickly to input (even the wrong input) DHV 1/2 wings hve long travel and slow input response, which in turn gives YOU more time to think. In a tight turn it takes more 'time and height' to re gain flight stability. Minor collapses are more likely in rough conditions, and when you have a tip collapse the wing will respond to it more ( a tip collapse very quickly turns into a fairly tight turn that requires fairly instant response from the pilot.) Its not that there will be a problem during normal flight, it's when it goes wrong. For a newbie pilot, the Fusion will be a much more stressful flight overall, so why would you want that? Unless you are going to use the Fusion for it's 'extra' dynamic behavior (which as a new pilot you wont be) you are not only safer on the Revo but will find it more fun. People will teach you on it, people will welcome you to there flying field without having to lie about your air time. and so on..... Thanks Simon. I hope that experienced pilots and instructors, people who have been paramotoring for a few years, can see what I believe is happening here. Wing technology is evolving rapidly and manufacturers are sat up listening and doing their best to give pilots what they want, which (newbie or experienced pilots), includes all of my above points and this is where the newbie confusion kicks in. Whereas, just a few years ago, an intermediate wing would probably have very little about it that would tempt a beginner to even consider buying one. All that has changed now and I think that experienced pilots are loving the new 'friendlier' intermediate wing in that it seems to give the best of both worlds. But, many of the points that are appealing to the experienced pilot are the same points that would appeal to a beginner. Certainly this has been the case for me. Simon's post (especially the bits I've quoted and highlighted) is really important, and for me, completely explains why I need to stop looking at the Fusion (for now ), and will buy a Revo. I hope the above makes sense and I would welcome some input from some beginners (less than 5 hrs) to confirm that it's not all in my head alone Cheers Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobra Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 I bought the Dudek Synthesis LT reflex wing. going by new pilots and more importantly experienced pilots, this was the choice. I had my friend who had never flown a Dudek test fly it, he had a few hundred hrs paramotoring and many more hrs free flying. He loved it, he put it through its paces as an experienced pilot and also tested it as if it were a beginner, advise was the easiest wing to fly, launch, land. and at the standard brake settings physically could not stall the wing but had enough to fly, flare etc as per normal. For him if he owned it he would shorted the brakes 4" and that was it. He flew it in 10 mph wind and also in 0 wind fwd launches etc. he was reluctant to let me have it back!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 I bought the Dudek Synthesis LT reflex wing. going by new pilots and more importantly experienced pilots, this was the choice. I had my friend who had never flown a Dudek test fly it, he had a few hundred hrs paramotoring and many more hrs free flying. He loved it, he put it through its paces as an experienced pilot and also tested it as if it were a beginner, advise was the easiest wing to fly, launch, land. and at the standard brake settings physically could not stall the wing but had enough to fly, flare etc as per normal. For him if he owned it he would shorted the brakes 4" and that was it. He flew it in 10 mph wind and also in 0 wind fwd launches etc. he was reluctant to let me have it back!! Enjoyable observation, Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 Agreed, The Synthesis is a far tamer wing than the Fusion. (more like the Revo in flight) SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 Exactly. The Revo and the Synth are so good that you can buy one of these as your first wing and happily fly them right through to British Open standard and still be competitive! They will look after you and you might well find you never need to upgrade again (until a paramotor version of the bbhpp come out, mmmmm!!!). Also don't forget that despite what I have written above there are still many training establishments that have kittens about anyone starting on a Synth or a Revo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davieboy33 Posted March 11, 2010 Author Share Posted March 11, 2010 To confirm, It was not me who sold a Fusion to a new pilot! Whoever sold you that wing should have there dealership taken away from them. It is not a wing for new pilots. It's no wonder they don't want you to post the name, it's not just e-bay you need to look out for, you have just been sold a wing which requires good piloting skills and at least a 50 hour a year pilot to fly it. I for one would not teach a new pilot on an intermediate wing either, nor would any half decent instructor worth there salt. SW Ok i can see i have opened a can of worms here so think i should just add a cpl of things to hopefully clear this up... But i know it probably wont.. Firstly Simon i agree with what you have said. I will point out one of my choices for the Fusion was based on a conversation with you about the fact there are no second hand Fusions on the market, if i think its beyond me i Know i will sell it quick... Secondly, The person that is selling me this wing KNOWS me... Knows my back ground and how i go about learning. I am a skydiver and i know that will send even more alarm bells ringing... lol.. I fly a very fast wing when swooping and a nice slow one when i am making canopy formations, in short i love all canopy flight and want to keep learning as much as possible. I teach swooping and canopy relative work. To do either without coaching is highly unwise and would probably end in a fatality every time. I do understand the importance of correct training and it was MY decision to go for the Fusion. That said ,it is why i will and have put aside a considerable amount of time for training. I also know you cant make everybody happy all the time and understand that people will not agree with the route i am taking. But i also am aware of a lot of people i have spoken with that do agree.. its also quite difficult in a forum to come across exactly how you would like without sounding arrogant or fool hardy of which i hope i am neither, I have read a lot on this site and can see quite clearly Simon and most people in fact are top draw when it comes to advice. I think i will leave this here as i am feeling a little like a scolded dog... hahaha I did know i would get these comments and totaly appreciate any concern people may have as i do when a newbie tells me he wants to swoop.... Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 I think i will leave this here as i am feeling a little like a scolded dog... hahaha I did know i would get these comments and totally appreciate any concern people may have as i do when a newbie tells me he wants to swoop.... Dave. Dave you are not the one to blame for getting a fusion, no matter what your back ground or how long this person has known you You should NOT have been sold a Fusion End of story Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_k Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 I teach swooping and canopy relative work. To do either without coaching is highly unwise and would probably end in a fatality every time. I do understand the importance of correct training and it was MY decision to go for the Fusion. That said ,it is why i will and have put aside a considerable amount of time for training. Dave it sounds like you have a sensible head on your shoulders and I'm sure all of us on here commend you for that. ...its also quite difficult in a forum to come across exactly how you would like without sounding arrogant or fool hardy of which i hope i am neither, I have read a lot on this site and can see quite clearly Simon and most people in fact are top draw when it comes to advice. Dave. Totally agree with both points. Please let us know how you get on. It would be interesting to read given your background Cheers, Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 This is a tricky one.. I am currently teaching a group of 10 military pilots, 6 of them have 'canopy' time and 1000's of jumps. It is something I am faced with often..... How do you value /gauge / assess air time under a canopy against air time under a wing... Is it of any value? The only person I know who can answer that is Ed Coleman. Ed.... the lights on you mate SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilc Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 Exactly. The Revo and the Synth are so good that you can buy one of these as your first wing and happily fly them right through to British Open standard and still be competitive! They will look after you and you might well find you never need to upgrade again (until a paramotor version of the bbhpp come out, mmmmm!!!).Also don't forget that despite what I have written above there are still many training establishments that have kittens about anyone starting on a Synth or a Revo! If not a Synth or Revo, what other wing could you start with that is more forgiving or stable for a beginner ?........... Neil.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanman Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 Many have started with a reaction but it is a bit hotter on and off the ground. Handling is a bit more dynamic and too much of the speed range is on the bar rather than on the trims. A good buy but perhaps better to hold out for a Synth or Revo. There will be a few become available as the season progresses as people upgrade. The Fusion and Nucleon are whetting the appetites of those flying Synths and Revo's for the last couple of years so these wings will become available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cambodia Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 Some good posts here,especialy Simon. This is what I do not understand. Taken from the Fusion manual it says: "reach up and release the trimmers if on a slow setting and if you like let go of the brakes completely. If conditions are very rough you may wish to keep hold of them, however the Fusion is even more stable at higher speeds, so we suggest you let go and enjoy the flight." If the Fusion is more prone to collapse etc in rough conditions and the pilot must be much quicker to react with his imput than the Synth and revo mentioned in the previous posts why does the manual say when its very rough its best put in fast trim, to let go of the brakes and let the wing fly itself out of trouble. How can we imput quickly if Paramania say no need to hold the brakes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 Some good posts here,especialy Simon.This is what I do not understand. Taken from the Fusion manual it says: "reach up and release the trimmers if on a slow setting and if you like let go of the brakes completely. If conditions are very rough you may wish to keep hold of them, however the Fusion is even more stable at higher speeds, so we suggest you let go and enjoy the flight." If the Fusion is more prone to collapse etc in rough conditions and the pilot must be much quicker to react with his imput than the Synth and revo mentioned in the previous posts why does the manual say when its very rough its best put in fast trim, to let go of the brakes and let the wing fly itself out of trouble. How can we imput quickly if Paramania say no need to hold the brakes? If you are in really rough air then go to full reflex (and full bar if you have the bottle) this makes the wing even more stable BUT if it does hit the fan then you need to be ready to control the wing, but by then you would be on the ground or air sick I would think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cambodia Posted March 11, 2010 Share Posted March 11, 2010 This is why this forum is so good. Everybody has a good imput with good intentions and a good dose of humour thrown in. No one is trying to be a clever arse and put people down. Learnt S**T loads since I found you lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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