volution special edition.

[poz]

I have just visited Pierre Aubert at PAP this morning, because this thread has me concerned about the true weight of my PAP PA125 that I've got on order. I had a very interesting conversation on the subject of published figures, but from a manufacturers point of view.

Basically he said that as soon as the first lies were told re weight/thrust etc, manufacturers, in order to stay competative, also felt that they were forced to lie. In other words, would you buy a Parajet if the advertised weight was 33kg, when others with similar power are claiming 26kg. Probably not.

But, interestingly and quite correctly he pointed out that it's not just about the actual weight of the paramotor on the scales, so much as how it feels on your back. If you have a very slim 30kg unit with light weight final drive components it will feel more comfortable and managable that a thicker paramotor weighing a couple of kg's less.

In a past conversation, he has proved this point by showing me two paramotor units to compare, his and a popular 4 stroke unit. There wasn't much difference in the actual weight, but the deeper 4 stroke unit, I felt was really pulling me backwards which made the whole experience much more uncomfortable.

So, I believe it isn't solely about the weight of the paramotor that needs to be taken into consideration.

Dan

[jean-christophe]

[quote name="Poz"... it's not just about the actual weight of the paramotor on the scales' date=' so much as how it feels on your back....

Dan[/quote]

I fully agree.

The only reason why I have weighed it is that it hurt my back just when I took it from the garage of my house to the garden (to hang at the swing crossbar to fit the straps). Walking only 20m made me feel very bad.

I would have accepted a couple of extra kg ... 32.5 (average measurement) for 24.6 is much more than a couple.

I'm really not at ease with all this : I have never seen such a well made paramotor. IMO it looks perfect, except that Parajet seems not to have realised that they had slipped over the acceptable limit (about weight lie). Maybe they are as victim as guilty of a stupid competition of lies which they took part in.

I had an email today from Parajet : The material should be picked up in the week by a transport company. I hope my money to be refund quickly now by my dealer.

[Guest]

I had made the decision to buy a Parajet Compact Special Edition (£4,450 - not cheap) because it claimed to be under 25kg (i.e. it claimed to be 1.4kg lighter than the standard Compact which claimed to weigh 26kg).

Fortunately I was warned by an experienced flyer that the Parajet figures were "misleading". What you say seems to confirm this.

I would have been extremely angry if I had spent all that money and then found that the paramotor was actually 33kg+.

If Parajet are misleading people about the weight of their paramotors then this is wrong and they (and people selling them) should be (1) ashamed of themselves and (2) strung up.

Look at the Parajet web-site, the advert shows a complete paramotor with harness (including electric start) for between 25kg and 27kg depending on (Volution) model. If this is wrong, then sort it out now.

I see a lot of people slagging off Flat Top and it's owner's "outrageous claims". However, I see from this forum that claimed weights for FTs are the same as actual weights. So I say to dealers - no more slagging off anyone else's product until you get your own house in order.

Dave

Dave Chill it out a little man!

No need to get carried away, I am a dealer and I am not ashamed of myself, if you want to come and string me up please do so, I love flying.

I agree that if the weights are incorrect they need to be changed ASAP. but don't start bashing the dealers!! I just read the same as you do.

AND,

I have had my compact for 3 years (and used it for teaching for that long) I have never put it on the scales, as it was not a concern of mine when buying, Its an awesome motor, Gilo and Jim know very well that I don't just sell them because I can... they work hard to keep me as a dealer and are working hard to make things better all the time.

Keep to the facts, don't start slagging people off and I will be happy.

If this forum turns into a bitch fight like so many others I will get bored and leave it to rot with the others.

I do it because its fun, so lets not take the awesome positive vibe this forum has away.

I am sure that a call from the customer to Parajet will have a far more positive result than a forum slag off.

And for the record, I have never slagged off a Flat Top I have never flewn one.

CHILL OR LEAVE.

SW

[Dave24]

Simon,

I think you're reading this all wrong. I am perfectly chilled. I didn't buy a paramotor which was "30% heavier" than advertised - but I can empathise with the guy on this thread who did.

As I said, if I had bought a paramotor and found out that I was mislead on weight - my #2 priority as a novice (maybe not yours as an experienced flyer), I would have been very annoyed (as I said). I can empathise with the guy who bought one and found it to be a big problem.

I also said "IF Parajet are misleading people about the weight of their paramotors" (as some people are aluding to in this thread). I said IF, because I understand that this is all based on third hand information. I am not claiming that Parajet, or you, were deliberately misleading people, but IF they, or others, were then that would be wrong.

I also said "no more slagging off anyone else's product until you get your own house in order" because I agree with you that this is supposed to be a friendly forum and sport. As someone new to the sport, reading everything on the net and speaking to as many flyers and dealers as possible (to find a paramotor for myself), I do notice it, and there is a lot of slagging going on.

Now I know you sell Parajets, but I was still surprised to see you have a go at me rather than at (the alledged practice of) Producers giving misleading figures to get a sale. I was also suprised at how quick you were to invite me "to leave the forum" despite nothing but positive comments since I joined.

Remember that everything I say, I say objectively (completely chilled) - my point is if any manufacturer lies about (important) aspects of their product then it is wrong, is illegal and should stop immediately. Do you agree?

I'm drawn to the quote:

"he said that as soon as the first lies were told re weight/thrust etc, manufacturers, in order to stay competative, also felt that they were forced to lie"

To balance:

I was also pleased to see Flat Top Dave's comment in another thread that his paramotor weighed as it was advertised.

Dave

Perhaps there are smilies I should be using throughout...

[Phil_P]

So Simon unless I'm reading your comments wrongly, do you not feel then that a dealer has any responsibility to his customers to ensure that some pretty basic and verifiable information is correct? Stuff like size, weight, perhaps even thrust (although once you start moving into areas like power, thrust, fuel consumption etc. I understand that verification becomes more difficult).

Given that if someone buys an item from you as a dealer, their contract under the sale of goods act is with you rather than the manufacturer, I'd have thought that it was in your best interest to make sure that info you were quoting was accurate to make sure that they don't come back requiring a refund (and in this day and age, consequential damages).

Also, notwithstanding your allegiances to some brands, would you personally not feel pretty angry if a large slice of your wad was taken in exchange for goods that didn't come close to meeting their description? Lets say for instance you bought a car with your purchase motivated in large part by the advertised top speed of 100 mph, wouldn't you be more than a tad bemused if it turned out not to do more than 70 mph?

Just playing devil's advocate here, with no major axe to grind.

Phil.

[Guest]

Phil,

All of my customers are very happy. My students / customers understand that the best way to test a motor is to fly it. (thats why I have two demo units.)

If when you put it on your back you think it is too heavy, or you don't like it in flight don't buy it.

Would you buy a car without test driving it?

All,

I do agree that it is grounds for a refund but then this is not my customer.

I still stand by the idea that a call to Jim or Gilo is a much better way to go than a public forum post.

You either want to get your money back or you want to wine about it?

Now PLEEEEEEEEEASE. Can we talk about flying and fun stuff on this site. There are other places that wont mind this sort of post which I would be more than happy if you took this conversation to.

Lets also remember, it was me who had to tick the little box for this post to go live. So this is not an effort to filter. I just cant be doing with this negative rubbish. THIS IS NOT THE PLACE.

SW

[Farmer_Dave]

Simon

I see it as a positive when you say "if the figures are wrong they should be changed asap"

Good on you for that. An extra 7 kilos might be enough to influence which size of wing to buy. Wouldn't do to have noobs overloading and not knowing it.

Dave

[tj]

Hi guys,

I'm not training to fly at the moment for various reasons, although I'm still interested in doing so. I love reading the comments and checking out the pics and vids on this forum and am picking up info all the time which is really useful and will help me make my final kit decisions.

I'm glad it's been mentioned that sometimes kit is heavier than advertised as it will be my bum in the seat and my cash with the dealer. Knowing a little bit about flying helps me, as I know the effect that weight can have in wing choice and safe flying, so I'll tuck this little nugget away for the future!

I think it's human nature to whinge about something if it goes wrong, and this increases with expense! I'm glad I know about the potential for 'exaggerations' in motor weight. I'm also glad I'm in the company of serious paramotor pilots that can offer advice and discuss this in relation to their experience. I'll be looking for the comfy option that lets me fly for longer

So cheers for your opinions, let's have loads of them!

Tj

[jean-christophe]

I will post to confirm all has well finished.

Hi all,

after a very unpleasant period, I have finally been refund my money. I had to ask help because the French dealer has been really dishonest, waiting 1 month and an official postmail to give my money back...

Parajet seems to be very worried by the situation. I had a good contact with them ... just the French dealer made some very bad work, saying a lot of bad things to me about Parajet ... I didn't know who I had to trust !

Parajet works on its brochures ... in my opinion, they deserve to have a good picture in paramotor's world ... it was just not the one for me !

I hope they will find a new (and honest) dealer in France.

End of this topic for me.

Sincerely yours.

Jean-Christophe

[Guest]

Thanks for the update.

Please do feel free to start another topic! hopefully it will be of merry tales of flying!

SW

[Merlin]

I'm sorry but reading this post has me puzzled..................................In a great deal of things we purchase we all realise that manufacturers make exagerated claims from washing up liquid to premium sports cars whether that be BHP weight 0-60 times etc this is not only because there are different ways of measuring these variables for example horse power can be quoted as at the rear wheel or produces at the engine.

Quite frankly why should paramotors be any different they are producing products in a weight critical industy where -1 kilo would make a customer choose one above another, but I'm with simon ultimately its how it feels on your back. I'm sorry but if I was spending 4000 + pounds on kit I would try before I buy. BTW I think anyone claiming that one manufacturer is holier than thou is b8llock5

[Dave24]

I'm sorry but reading this post has me puzzled..................................In a great deal of things we purchase we all realise that manufacturers make exagerated claims from washing up liquid to premium sports cars whether that be BHP weight 0-60 times etc this is not only because there are different ways of measuring these variables for example horse power can be quoted as at the rear wheel or produces at the engine.

Quite frankly why should paramotors be any different they are producing products in a weight critical industy where -1 kilo would make a customer choose one above another, but I'm with simon ultimately its how it feels on your back. I'm sorry but if I was spending 4000 + pounds on kit I would try before I buy. BTW I think anyone claiming that one manufacturer is holier than thou is b8llock5

Merlin,

Paramotors shouldn't be any different. If they adveryise something they know is wrong, they should stop doing so. It's illegal and morally wrong. If one day you find yourself out of pocket and extremely unhappy with a product you've bought, that doesn't deliver on fact-based claims (not opinions) and where critical in your purchase decision, then you might not be so quick to condone the practice of lying to get a sale.

Dave