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Walkerjet starting problems


SimonC
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Hi Guys - thanks in advance if u read throught this lot :-)

I have a WJ RR 200cc. Its second hand but honestly looks new. I know the original owner and he had it from new but only did around 5 hours. I have done about 5 hours since first going solo a few months back.

It has been faultless every start. The only failed starts were due to me forgetting to prime it.

I rewired the kill and start switches on the throttle/handgrip yesterday.

(I did this as the existing config was to my mind feckin stupid. The side rocker was the kill - almost impossible to use safely - and the push button on the top was the start - again stupid as it was easy to inadvertently push)

I 'simply' swapped the wires from one switch to the other - de soldered and re soldered.

Didnt get chance to test start it last night so went straight to the field this morning (Dohhhhhhhhhhhhh).

It turned over (with the 'new' start rocker switch) but would not fire.

Cleaned plug

New plug

No spark at all

Its now in bits....

As both switches are 'push to make' a circuit I cant see how that can have done anything to cause the failure to start. I am fairly mechanically minded although elastictrickery is another matter. So I had an electrician mate check the continuity of the wiring from the handgrip down to the speakon connector and all tickety boo (also consulted the wiring diagram).

We had the battery box apart and all 'looked' ok.

The start switch cranked the motor over so the relay is fine. The rectifier is probably ok as I have only charged it once when I first got it. As the motor usually fires first kick ie probably by 2 cycles max it could be goosed but looking at the diagram I cant see how it would affect starting (only charging).

So with the plug out we hand swung the prop at a fair rate and got (I think) 40v from the mag/dynamo.

From that I'm thinking its the coil pack/cdi. I hope to try a new one this week but any other feedback would be appreciated.

I did read this thread before posting..

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3762&p=24323&hilit=walkerjet+electric+pack#p24323

Cheers

Simon

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the motor on the other thread has now been completely rewired and is running, the main problem at the out set is that the coil was u/s.

Do you have a rocker switch on the bottom of your hand grip? (this one did so that after you had started it you could switch this off to stop the starter re engaging by accident)

If you take the live feed and earth off your coil you should get an ohms reading across the terminals on the coil (cant remember what it should be now) if you get no reading the coil is u/s.

connect your meter to the live coil feed and swing the prop and you should get a short reading if not then the live is earthed some where.

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Hi Pete thanks for the reply.

Yes the handgrip is as you describe. The rocker lends itself to the start function and the other to the kill. I cant for the life of me understand why they were in the former configuration???

Luckily I have another identicle coil to try hopefully on Thursday. If I get chance I will retest the existing coil before then and report back.

Cheers

Simon

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Hi Simon

I was just reading your message I thought to myself ''has someone just posted my old message on this forum again'' very strange

I had the exact same issue. I had loads of people have a look at it run various tests on it, I even had a numpty head who I meet through this forum totally making a hash of the electrics and then trying to pull a fast one on me. That's another story!!!!!

So I contacted Simon (site owner, admin) who then put me on to Pete who has left a reply above. Pete did a great job in rewiring my electric pack and converting my batterys to Ni-cads.

I too have a 2006 WJ 200 RR. Pete replaced the main switch on the battery pack and also put a input jack for me to plug in external items such as. Pda, Lights etc.

To get my Paramotor working from when it had the exact same problem as yours:

Pete swapped my CDI and did a hand start on mine and it fired up...I had a problem which is sort of embarrassment for me as my started motor failed and I ordered a new one. It turned out it was the wrong one It spun the props the wrong way!!!!!! I was a bit annoyed with myself. I am new to this sport and I guess we all make mistakes. I have just ordered another one so should be flying soon.

As I said I had every component tested all kill switches tested, I had electrical engineers with 30 years exp look and it and could not find the fault.

I going to say its the ignition CDI

http://www.parajet.com/shopmag/paramoto ... -unit.html

I hope you get the problem solved as I have said numerous times Petes the man.

Question... How have you found the Walkerjet. As I said I am new and have very few hour under my belt. I went into this sport as green as they come. I just bought the first paramotor that looked good and worked.

I have nearly quit this sport before I even got fully into it with the hassle I have had with the electric pack. BUT.... Fingers crossed with the good work Pete has done (who I am very thankful for him doing the work) I should be all good..

D

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Hi Chap - I read your thread before I bought my machine!

I wasn't too worried about any of the mechanical aspects. My brother races 2 strokes and we have had bikes all our lives. I have owned Lotuses for a long time and if you know how fragile they can be you will understand :-) (I have 2 with engines out at the moment).

I have also done stacks of conventional fixed wing flying over 21 years so am familiar with 'flying machines'.

The WJ came to light via a friend of a friend. Cutting a long story short I started training last year with loads of GH with Paul Haxby in Doncaster (top chap). Weather and time prevented a full run at the training but I managed to blag a trip to Annecy, France with a new team of 'mates' to observe their silly leaping off a hillside antics. I intended a bit more GH while they did their thing.

Ended up doing a tandem then, with a borrowed Sky Fides, took the leap myself several times - a great buzz. I did some basic training with another student - an ex Dutch Starfighter and current Airline pilot. We were as apprehensive as each other!!!

Anyway with my new found 'knackers' I went straight back to Paul and did my PM Solo the week after.

I then went to look at the WJ again and bought it straight away. It looked bang on and to be fair it is mint. My friends had said it was 'a bit heavy but the power is stunning'.

The build quality seems very good and the finish matches the build quality.

I however have no experience with any other PM machines so I'm commenting based on my car, bike and other flying machinery experience.

The power really is its best feature and I suppose even if ones technique is shoddy one can get away with a pants Toff.

It has started first time every time. I have been around it a couple of times to make sure everything is tight and all ok.

I was astounded when it failed as it had been bang on every time. I am used to 'mechanical dissapointment' so I took the experience fairly well :-)

The adverse torque is a bit of a pig but have tended to sort that once airborne with the LH trim (Bought an APCO Thrust 09). Other than that and the weight its great.

As discussed above the handgrip is not ideal and I can feel a custom job coming on when I get the time. I have swapped the switches and this is the best improvement so far. I'm not sure the single trigger thing is the best solution as my finger soon gets cold. The action is not smooth and no matter what I do to the cable or the trigger its shill Sh*te!!!

Compared with the old Sky Fides I was using to Glide with the Apco is a total dream especially getting the wing up wearing all that kit and carrying a sherman tank on ones back.

So I will try the new coil first then start replacing bits in the pack - well that if this snow ever melts and I can get out of the house

Cheers

S

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bearing in mind I really am a numpty when it comes to electronics I got the following results.

test 1 - On the 2000ohms scale on my meter I get a reading of 340 across both terminals (spades)

test 2 - From either terminal and the HT lead on the 2000k ohms scale I get 004 on each terminal

It appears these figures are outside limits described in a previous coil test post so would confirm its goosed??

Sanity check anyone??

ta

Si

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Spookily at the time you posted the above I was in the local motorbike shop with the coil sat on his box of tricks looking at a spark from the HT lead that would knock a T Rex over!!!

So it's not the coil....

I have been snowed in/comitted to child care duties due to the weather hence no progress.

I'm taking the motor in on Sat morning so we can get the flywheel off and check the pulse generator etc...

Everyone is telling me to swap the switches back but I just wont do it!!! :-))

More news as I have it....

S

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Simon

Just a thought. I had an RR with the 200 Fly. The wires were poorly routed and not well restrained and 2 of them melted to the engine cooling fins. It happened whilst grounded luckily and I should've picked it up on my preflight checks but it was a brand new machine at the time.

Just have a close look at yours. It would stop a spark if the kill wire was grounded to the barrel, but not neccessarily stop it turning over.

good luck

DG

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Hi Simonc

Have you swopped only the possitive wires on the handgrip. It could be that the start and stop circuits are seperate and both + - need swopping. Although the engine still turns over some do when both start and stop switches are pressed together (Parajet does). BTW I am rubbish at electrics, its all wizzardry to me.

It seems too much of a coincidence that the problem started when you changed something. I bet its something stupid-simple.

Whitters.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Guys - I got an old batt pack and Coil to try but alas exactly the same problem.

I am managing to get a weak spark between the plug threads and the engine (earth). God knows how that works.

We isolated the pulse generator coil and connected it straight to the HT coil and earthed the other terminals on both coils to the engine with new wires - same again.

Also tried a 3rd plug with no change.

I tested the pulse generator coil at 292ohms. I contacted a rewiring company by email and they came back to me today suggesting it looked like a Beta unit and should be resisting at 380ohms ish.

Bike shop said it looked like a Beta unit and they are 'a bit crap' even new out of the box they are not too reliable.

So I'm sending the stator off to them tomorrow for an £80 rewind to be on the safe side. After all it's flying machine and if they can fail like that on the ground it could fail anytime. Again it might not be the cause but I have tried everything now without trying a 3rd set of components.

Fingers crossed!!!

Whitters - I have tested it with and without both battery packs and the handgrip connected and disconnected and it makes no difference but thanks for the heads up.

DG - good point. I checked the integrity of the wires (meter) and all seem fine. The wires on mine are routed through one of the webs in the engine mount casting. The hole has a grommet and extra sheathing for info.

Cheers

Si

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi Guys - the nightmare continues...

I got a quick reply from the factory saying they thought it was the stator and they could supply a new one 46 euro plus 20% tax and shipping. I had aready sent it to be rewound in the UK.

I have the rewound stator but thats not pushing enough out to get a spark across the plug electrode. Its defo trying as (with plug cap removed) you can see very tiny sparks if you hold the HT lead just off the block.

So after hauling the PM round in the van I found a local bike dealer yesterday in the next village (the irony..) who also thought it was a beta stator.

A quick trip into his stock room and he produced a new one and a rewound unit to compare. They are almost Identicle. The iron core and plastic bobbins are the same along with the mounting holes. The wiring comes off the coils in the same place too but the jointing is different.

I could not buy the rewound unit (£125.00 exchange) as I didnt have an 'identicle' Beta unit to swap. I did not want to buy the new one (£145.00 :shock: ) as I dont trust a new one and I could not get a refund if it didnt work in situe... :roll:

The guys a the bike shop recomended another rewinding firm as they didnt have good things to say about the guys I have already used so recommended another... :roll:

So I am now waiting for replies from...

...the WJ factory to confirm what the resistance should be across a new primary coil (I asked them originally but either forgot to tell me or dodged the question so I would buy one from them).

...the rewinders I have used to ask why their rewind looks less stacked than the original windings or the other two Beta units I saw yesterday. (We think that it needs more windings so it gives a bigger pulse).

...the suggested rewinders to see if they can supply a rewound one without supplying an exchange unit.

What a load of time consuming crap for what is basically a lawn mower.

I defo would not now buy a PM without knowing about the parts support in the UK. It is pityful. At the end of this lot I expect to know where I can source all the bits locally and for the best price.

I also think the standard stators are pants. Not just my opinion but everyone who has had dealings with these stators. It has been said that the copper used is poor quality and can fail after only minimum use.

It is my intention to only fly with a quality rewound unit NOT an original under any circumstances. Naming no names but after watching a video of the assembly of another very well know british made PM the stator unit looks identical to that one too!!!

More details as I have them

Cheers

S

This is the Beta Stator for info...

betastator02on.jpg

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You said in your last post that you were getting tiny sparks with the plug cap removed. Have you tried a replacement cap? Don't know if you are aware of this, the spark always looks white and weak, in fact you struggle to see it on a sunny day. The spark is hotter than the big blue spark you would normally see on a car. That tiny spark may be OK. Have you looked for any other possibilities causing the non-starting?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Right then - at last - got it running last night and after a warm up revved it's feckin tits off!!!!!

So - tested the HT coil at bike shop - tested OK......

Sent the stator off for rewinding £90.....

Got it back - connected primary coil directly to HT coil - still no spark...

Visited a couple of bike shops - looks like a beta unit - £145.00 Gulp

Can only try if you buy so I left it and contacted (by recommendation of the bike shop) another rewinder. He was mega helpful

and explained the subtleties

Emailed factory to ask about a replacement stator and what the resistance was so I could get the old one rewound to the

correct spec.... no reply - this was over a week ago

More research...

Found IDM website in Italy and emailed them as it looked like it was an IDM HT/Stator combo manufactured by them.

Got a reply straight back from IDM in Italy suggesting I contact Parajet!

I had checked out their site before but didnt see the stator. Its EXACTLY THE SAME!!!!!! Well it was on the photo anyway.

Great service from Parajet. I ordered it and it came next day TNT. About £45.00

Installed it and coupled it straight to the HT coil as before. Cranked over the engine and still no spark.

It was now time to set fire to everything and move onto something less frustrating.

So only thing left was to try a new coil and ideally one from Parajet as it would defo be compatible with the new stator.

Phoned them again and more great service - it arrived next day and is EXACTLY the same as both the old HT coils from the Walkerjet. Again £45 ish.

I was late for an appointment but wanted to test the resistance at least before I left. Putting the meter across the new coil

gave me a reading of 1314ohms..... (as opposed the the old ones at ~340ohms)..................

I think we found the problem.

I got back home ASAP by 19.30hours and the rest is history...

So for anyone else with Walkerjet problems heres some concise info which had I know earlier would not have caused me to miss so many flying opportunities over the last nearly 2 months...

It is my opinion and no warranties are given - info is subject to change and all without prejudice - yawn.

1 - The relay in the batt box is for switching in the power circuit for the starter motor and that's all.

2 - The kill and start switches are in my opinion ergonomically the wrong way round. Swapping the wiring inside the handgrip was easy and did not affect anything else. Both are push to make switches and do the same electronic job with different physical interface.

3 - Emailing the factory and asking questions is at best hit and miss and for technical detail has been a dead loss.

4 - To the best of my knowledge the Parajet ignition components are identicle to the WJ

5 - Parts

Coil

CDI/Secondary Coil/HT Coil - whatever you like to call it. It's made by IDM in italy http://www.idm-srl.it/indexEng.asp

Available from Parajet...

http://www.parajet.com/shopmag/spare-pa ... -unit.html

To test it set your meter to the 2000ohms Scale and if it reads ~ 1314ohms or thereabouts its probably OK. If it reads as low as 340 ohms it's goosed.

Stator

Stator - consists of 3 charging coils and a primary/pulse coil. The primary coil sits at 6 O'Clock and has a tape and varnish covering.

To test the primary coil put your meter across the black+red and the blue wire and you should get ~280ohms. Obviously you can test it without taking the flywheel off. Just disconnect the speakon from the batt box etc...

To get to the stator the large nyloc needs to come off in the centre of the flywheel. (The flywheel contains 4 magnets set into its inner circumference. The starter ring gear is fastened with machine screws to the back of the flywheel).

To 'pull' the flywheel off its tapered shaft (end of the crank shaft) usually takes a lot of force so forget it without using a puller/correct flywheel remover. The bike shop had a big tool drawer full of screw in pullers but none fitted this flywheel - typical.

I invested in a set of three legged pullers from a cheap tool shop for only a tenner and the large one did the trick. The legs did have to grip the back of the ring gear which was not ideal but In this case the flywheel came off with no damage. Watch for the key in the keyway on the tapered shaft. If you loose this there will be tears. Also if you dont know how to use a puller ask a mechanic etc..

The stator is also available from Parajet..

http://www.parajet.com/shopmag/spare-pa ... -coil.html

For ref the charging regulator and the relay in the WJ batt box also look identicle to the units on the PJ site.

If you want your stator rewinding contact Steve at http://www.uk-motoplat.com/home.html. He didnt rewind mine but comes highly recommended and gave me loads of advice.

Cheers

Simon

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Hi All thanks for your support - what would we do without the web!

Kev - No probs here are the numbers...

New one - 42 5479

U/S - 54 5087

U/S - 54 2286

The old battery box had some evidence of a previous 'serious coil malfunction' with a 2p sized scorch mark imediately behind the coil.

What I didn't mention above was why both the coils and stator were goosed at the same time. I will try and find out. I will of course post any findings.

Cheers

Simon

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I sent an e-mail to IDM regarding the coil CDI unit. I was interested to find out if the coil CDI units were all the same internally and if the numbers on the outside meant there were any differences in the units.

I received a very swift reply:

"Dear sir,only difference is lenght of cables. You can use with no problem. Regards. IDM Srl"

Bearing in mind it was Sunday and I had the reply late Sunday night, all I can say is fantastic.

One size fits all.

Kev

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  • 2 weeks later...

Had a penny dropping moment. A bit of background first, most paramotors use an AC ignition system, but that is a bit misleading as the CDI needs a DC supply to work. That is achieved by a rectifier built into the CDI unit to convert AC to DC. This would explain why the HT coil worked OK in the bike shop. I would hazard a guess that the shop tested it using a DC supply, but when fitted onto the paramotor it would not work as the internal rectifier was goosed and unable to convert AC to DC for the capacitor. Maybe?

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i have a new one waiting for fitting if you need me to take any readings from it, just tell me from where to where! it took me forever to get a reply from them, terrible customer service, but i did get the parts 3 months later! consider that if you can get one elsewhere!

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  • 2 years later...

I'm in New Mexico, USA and have the same/similar Walker-jet 200 (Fly version, vs Siminoni version)... but Viktor made the pre-2006 engine (electric start) ignitions using a 4-connector "regulator" (the small aluminium 'box' with the heat sink fins) which is also an AC to DC rectiifier... used to recharge the batteries. It is my understanding that the engine stator that WJ-CZ uses are all 4-wire, but one wire is not used (it IS connected to the Engine's Neutronix twist-lock connector (Plug - male) on the engine outside, but NOT connected on one of the Neutronic socket/recepticle's (female) internal-side terminals (NC).

You have the identical symptoms that I have: " weak-spark voltage" and hence... I bought a new stator, having tried a new CDI coil, boot and regulator. I also had switched out the throtle switches, but to do that properly, you apparently must FULLY rewire all 3 switches, in order to maintain a full circuit path (or not short the red/blue primary contacts on the CDI coil... which would account for your original "No-Spark" condition. It is also possible that just making that throttle rewiring, 'might' damage one of the 4 coild on the stator. FYI - the engine's stator should develop approx 250-280 VAC, at full RPMs; which is passed to the CDI coil and then boosted to approx. 10k VAC for the spark.

I'm currently re-connecting my ORIGINAL stator, per factory spec and will see if the spark is truely weak, now that I've reconnected the throttle switches back to their ORIGINAL factory configuration. IF that still produces a 'weak-spark', then there is only 2 parts left: the CDI coil (the coil wire screws on to the boot and does become burned (arced) out at the boot/plug cap connector. WJ-CZ sell new boots for a rediculous price, but still... cheaper than not flying. The other part is the regulator/rectifier.. and they DO go bad.

I will post asap0: if/when I resolve my own "weak-spark" condition and let you know what part(s) resolved the issue. Regards, queqqq

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