dan_p Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Norman, This work is very impressive. You are applauded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 Thanks Dan, it will take time to roll the whole thing out but it should be worth the wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 hello pete. As I understand it the PMC instructors syllabus has been checked by some of the top law people in the country (and Onrisk themselves) and there would be very very little chance that they could sue for negligence or anything similar as long as you have followed the syllabus as it is written? can you send me the lawers names who have checked this please? or least the persons name were it has been said from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Leoibb, I am not sure why you want the information but I can tell you that Helen "the Lawyer" is a very good friend that I have known for many years. Again, why the info? whats the problem? SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share Posted September 11, 2009 Would that be Helen the QC Simon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 basically to clear one or two things up for my own reasons, ive spoke with a few lawers that seems to be different to the information from yours so if possible id like to chat with the hellen and discover why her sight on it is different , its nothin to do with the pmc just i have been searchin for an answer and it sounds like she the lawer may have it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 just changins subject slightly, ya remember ya friend the welder? he was removed from here. well he flies with a friend of mine and he smashed his machine up lucky to be livin apparently , no harm to him but could have been far worse, just tryin to think of things to cheer people up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share Posted September 11, 2009 leoibb, She is a QC so it could cost you an arm and a leg! 'Would hate to see that happen, physically or metaphorically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 anything worth havin costs money and if it gets accuracies then it is worth it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 i assume there wont be any number and name for the lawer getting posted then????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 I doubt it leoibb but that is amatter for Simon, and your point is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 i assume there wont be any number and name for the lawyer getting posted then????????? I would suggest finding your own Lawyer that specialises in personal injury and submitting your training Syllabus to them. They will soon tell you if there are any loop holes that can be used to sue you for injury, if you use it to train by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 the point is that you suggested the sylabus has been checked and you are safe legaly if thing go wrong yes? well what i am sayin is send me the name and number of the said solicitor and let me check the information for my self, to be fair it hasnt come forward because i believe it not to be true. so if i am wrong send the details of the person and lets get it checked out , ya see it is peoples lives ya playin with sayin oh ya ok if you use our sylabus , the fact is they aint safe legally . please prove me otherwise and send the details so i can check this information for my self Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 the point is that you suggested the sylabus has been checked and you are safe legaly if thing go wrong yes? well what i am sayin is send me the name and number of the said solicitor and let me check the information for my self, to be fair it hasnt come forward because i believe it not to be true. so if i am wrong send the details of the person and lets get it checked out , ya see it is peoples lives ya playin with sayin oh ya ok if you use our sylabus , the fact is they aint safe legally . please prove me otherwise and send the details so i can check this information for my self No it is not peoples lives we are playing with leoibb it is ours Perhaps you do not understand insurance it is there to pay out in the case of a claim, if they do not pay out and the lawyer still thinks they have a claim then they come after me. Ask your car insurance company to give the lawyers name they use. Ask your house insurance company to give the lawyers name they use. Ask your accident insurance company to give the lawyers name they use. Ask the BMAA insurance company to give the lawyers name they use. Ask ANY insurance company to give the lawyers name they use If you do not believe that the insurance is valid then do your training with someone that will give you the name of the lawyer that they used to check if there insurance would be valid. I cannot suggest any other course of action for you to persue other than those I have already stated. P I Baldwin Fully insured PMC QFI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 yes the car insurance always does give you the lawers read the small print, and when ya say its your lives ya playin with well, that aint true really because you are signing people up to do the course which is someone else is it not, and ya sayin what ya said here which is you are covered and all blame is took away from you if you follow our sylabus, ohh because our lawer says but no you cant have a number or name to check this out so you just got to trust us but give us ya money and lets get ya started, there is only a fool who would accept your word for it, i was dubious all along about the courses available and the claimes people made so i did some checking for my self with a lot of lawers and the fact is if anything happened to a student while under paid instruction, then the instructor is liable, forget insurance i am talking serious court matters. so il ask again send me the relevant lawer to tell me it is different , ya know i am genuinly interested in hearing a lawer tell me it is different so please send me the details. now clearly if i dont get them it tells me that it aint true and all a bit wishy washy. ya know it got me curious why a lot of instructor dont bother with insurance at all , i mean it is cheap enough and i have proved anyone can get it so it isnt cost is it, is it that they have done similar to me made calls and realize that the insurance isnt worth anything, and criminal proceedings would follow regardless of insurance? my understanding of this is that if any serious harm came to a student then you can be seriously in trouble prison stuff, there is no way round this as i have looked deep not with just asked one, ive spoke to a lot of lawers, your welcome to there names and numbers too, the sylabus is not worth toffee due to the fact that there is no licence therfore there is no set format for teaching, i accept you you have a safe way to do it, but the court aint interested in that , but also do check ya small print on ya insurance for ya car and house and what ever else ya like it is in the small print is the lawers, and if not then its a phone call , but i can assure ya they have nothin to hide, and dont give me answers like i wonder what this and that would say if you asked them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Leoibb, We are talking about instructors insurance here. Our student insurance is provided by On-Risk, who may or may not give you details of (their) lawyers. Our training system provides a huge amount of cover (not just insurance) It shows that we have taken the best possible actions to keep our students safe througout their training. A person teaching a student without a training system that shows the same, has no protection in a court in the event of a claim against him as he / she can not show that their duty of care has been carried out correctly. (even if they did carry out an outstanding course, which was very safe, and then student has an accident, where is your proof in court that you did?) For whatever reason you seem to be unable to accept that this is the case, so..... Should you decide to become a PMC instructor, I will put you on the phone to the Lawyer so that you can chat to her. Until then, there are a number of very good reasons for not posting the details here. As Pete says, you are not being forced to use this system, nor will you ever be. You are not being forced to even use the forum for that matter. If you are unhappy with the things you read here and can not contribute effectively to is development with constructive comments, please do feel free to go else where. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 leoibb, You are quite right, there is no insurance policy available to protect the incompetent or those that do not exercise a duty of care - except an airline ticket out of the country. Insurance policies generally cover third party liability for damage to property and legal fees in the event a defence needs to be mounted after a claim is made against you. If you can prove competence and that you exercised a duty of care then you are on firm ground. This costs money and that cash comes from your insurers if you are covered for that risk. Your question might not be,"can you make me safe from any claim?" but, "if someone claims against me, can you help me defend myself?" As I understand it that is the problem with litigation - being able to adequately defend yourself in court. I have tried to illustrate for you the difference between a system of licensing and that of certification and the need to structure training for pilots and instructors. If you can't get your head around that I suggest you find someone who can spell it out for you. Anyone wanting PPG training in this country has a choice, either go with an organisation that shows their members how they propose to train/educate their pilots and instructors - or go with the route that has been in place for anyone in the UK since PPG started - trial and error or working under someone who is an unknown quantity and may have no training whatever. The PMC is not selling a cast iron system where non exists, are you inferring that it is? If you want details of what Onrisk offer with their insurance policies, ask them. Simon has passed our documentation through the hands of a friend who is a QC, that person has offered advice which the PMC is endeavouring to follow. That is Simon's business. If you want a chat with a QC - pay for it. The advice you get will almost certainly mirror what we were told which isn't far from what you were saying earlier. Again, the PMC are pouring effort into training to make this game as safe as it can and exercise that duty of care, not sell courses that promise things they can't deliver at inflated prices to make money, which is what I think you seem be inferring? Our courses generally pay those running them a fair wage but do not make a profit. Talk to the guys running them if you don't believe me. This is a sport that has risks attached to it, there is no magic piece of paper to absolve ANY instructor in ANY aviation related activity that absolves him of the duties described above. THINKING, PLANNING and TRAINING and ANTICIPATION AND AVOIDANCE OF UNACCEPTABLE RISK are the best defence against error and accident - not pieces of paper. Put your effort into these areas and you will see a reward, trying to find a cheap insurance policy and a lawyer who can put your mind at rest is a pretty futile way to pass your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 Ahh, we crossed Simon. Sorry. I will leave this post here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 i was just clearly making a point that it is a load of pony and i am not nor ever been interested in the pmc training, i was interested in what was said, lawers have said it is ok or something along those lines, well i know different which is why ya aint come forward with a name of a lawer, and cos i cant log in on my normal name i assume you banned me, pretty spineless move to be fair, mind you same happened to welder when he didnt agree, ohhh he got banned, has everyone to accept what ya say simon? or they get banned, reminds me of a kid with sweets lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tj Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Hi Guys, As far as I can see, there are two opposing views here that aren't going to be reconciled. The PMC says that they would like to instruct members of the public in flying PPG, which they will do via a manual that says specifically how they do this. The people that carry out this instruction will have had some extra instruction (in both flying and how to instruct) based on the experiences of an organisation that has taught for 'some time'. This has meant that insurance for the instructors is a reasonable cost. The insurance is in place in case something untoward happens and someone takes the PMC to court (where what a reasonable man says goes, or that's the theory). This was done on the advice of a legal expert (who the PMC choose not to name). Seems fair enough. Leo says that he doesn't see the point in having insurance as anyone can get it regardless of how they decide to train members of the public. Should he go down the instruction route he wouldn't bother with it. Again fair enough, his view. Who would be more likely to end up in trouble with the court should something go wrong? The group/person that couldn't show a reasonable man that they had taken every precaution they could think of when instructing members of the public. Who would end up instructing more people man for man - those that people feel safest with should things end up in court. This time I'm with the PMC - safety first. Having said that, it's a shame that Leo won't be sharing his 'alternative' views anymore(!). I quite enjoy having a quiet chuckle as I read them... Toodle Pip, Tj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Leiobb, Gibbs, whatever your name is... You are not banned so please dont make it sound s though you are. If you had been your name would be replaced with Guest. If your having a problem loging in, tell me what it is and I will sort it. I will though remove the Gibbs account in the interest of keeping the number real. Leoibb, I often read your posts, dispite the fact that you have been banned from other forums I wont ban you from here., until you give me cause to of course. I dont mind your questions, but I do find you a little abrasive, and repetative some times. Thats a personal thing though, I know other forum members quite like your posts. SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 i have no intention of bein in pmc or instructing so it really makes no difference at all.quote] So why are you here? If your account has been manually deactavated you must have done it? Also, take a look at this post made by one of your accounts on June 11th. ( Only 3-months ago) viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3185&p=19540#p19540 You must be able to understand how I find it hard to read your posts with any interest now? SW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 i am a new person having just signed on this discussion, came across it by googling subjects i am interested in, this has gotme confused, this course that is available is it legal? or not legal?from what i am reading it seems you have a course but without no proffesional backing. seems extremely misty to me. Define professional backing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 If that answered your question then you must know more than me as there is no official professional body as regards Training in paramotoring. If you know of one please let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tj Posted September 19, 2009 Share Posted September 19, 2009 That was the answer which has answered my quiery thankyou pete but clearly asking such a question demonstrates you do not have a proffesional body that has signed or condoned such an agreement of training.this subject made me curious and that was the only real reason i spoke in this discussion you are welcome to reply but i will not be available till late next week to reply Hi Nikki, I just googled 'amateur sports associations uk', to see what came up. The first was http://www.ara-rowing.org/ the site for the amateur rowing association. Simple navigation to me to their training page. There are ways of learning to row, for which the coaches are paid, insurance is compulsory for them and their students and for which there is a recognised syllabus. There are no 'proffessionals' involved. It is however an olympic sport in which Great Britain excels. The Paramotor club is offering a similar standard of service (As yet it's not an olympic sport, however the current worldchampion Michel carnet is represented on the British team at the world championships). Does this explain how 'professional' the service is that's being offered by the oly nationwide organisation solely representing this sport? Any other questions gladlyanswered as therearea goodfew years of flying experience out there. me, I've only got common sense to go by! Take care, Tj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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