Gin Bolero mk1 safe for Paramotor???

[glennP]

Hi,

After many years flying tin cans and microlights and finding it increasingly costly I've decided to strap a motor to my back and take to the air that way.

I've just joined the forum and I am looking at buying my first paramotor. I've already got a wing, a large 2002 Gin Bolero DHV1, which I use for Hill PG and was wondering if it was OK to use with a paramotor. Anyone have any experience using the Mk1 Bolero under power? Obviously this would put the all up weight above the recommended limit but it don't see myself pulling nose down spirals (not intentionally anyway ) so the extra safety margin shouldn't come into question. I'm more concerned about pitch stability and any effect on recovery from tucks deflations etc. Plus countering of the gyroscopic torque effect from the prop.

I've heard that Gin make a set of Power Risers but can't find any info about them anywhere.

I'll gonna start with a RAD Arrow or Javelin or similar lightweight motor and take it from there. I'm 75-80kg so I think that will be OK for the smaller RAD. Can these paramotors easily be restarted in the air? I'll probably do some thermalling etc so that will be useful.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers, Glenn

[gallar]

My current wing is a Bolero plus (lardarse size) that I brought with me from hill flying and which has handled the additional weight of the motor without demur. Subsequent fitted with power risers that I obtained through Paul Haxby of AXB Sports, together with a set of slightly larger stainless maillons added later (the original Gin ones were just a mm or so too small to be easily worked on in the power risers by ole' sausage fingers here).

Pretty stable wing for me thus far and a nice slow land and launch speed. Without power risers definitely a wing for the 'gentleman paramotorist' who is not in a hurry to go anywhere too rapidly for fear of giddiness..... Which may well be why 2009 is pencilled in as the year I trade up to something with a rather more power-specific profile!

[ArcusFlyer]

Hi,

I was in a very similar position not too long ago, hill flyer with a DHV1 wanting to use it with a lightweight motor. I posted on here to see if my Arcus 5 was suitable. I got a RAD MXL and a set of powerplay power risers. The wing seems fine under power (got an experienced PPG instructor to test fly it first). The Radne racket engine in the MXL/Arrow/Javelin is very good in my opinion but the three bladed plastic prop on the MXL meant it provided slightly too little thrust for my weight. Also frame design has improved greatly since the MXL was designed (again in my opinion).

In the end after 2 short flights I sold the MXL and bought a PAP Top 80 1400 (not quite as light but still pretty light) for 4 reasons:

More power, better cage, Centrifugal clutch (MXL had no clutch although I believe Javelin/Arrow do have one(?)), low hang points feel so much better to an ex free flyer. The PAP is a great machine (in my opinion).

Since then I've done quite a few flights on the new motor including a couple of short XCs.

I still haven't bothered fitting the power risers but I guess I will be tempted to if I start doing longer XCs with friends on reflex wings.

I'm sure the bolero will be fine, it was certainly on my shortlist when I was shopping for my first hill flying wing.

Hope my experiences are of some use to you.

[glennP]

Cheers Guys!!!!

Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. I'll do a bit more research into the power risers. I was gonna get some instruction from Paul Haxby a while back when I first decided to try PPG but I got moved up North by work so that fell through.

It's good to know that based on others experience I won't be trying to fly something totally unsuitable. I understand I won't be breaking any speed records with the Bolero though.

Cheers again, Glenn

[dave_treen]

I started with a Bolero Plus XL which I initially used for free flight.

I purchased it so that I could also use it for PPG. It covered a good wide weight range.

The big problem that I ran into with the Bolero was that when under full power it would hang back and then swing from side to side so much so that people on the ground had to change their pants. they thought I was going to fall out of the sky.

I was using a PaP with M21 Corsair engine, plenty of power to get my large lump off.

I must admitt I did not have the Power Risers fitted at the time.

So, if you are using a powerful motor take care !

I now fly a Revolution 30................................

[paramotormike]

I also have a Hill wing a Advance Epsilon 5.

I dont know if the Gin is the same but fitting Paramotor risers with trimmers to my wing, hardly made any difference to the top speed. A few MPH. There also seemed to be some confusion if it is OK to use the trimmers on fast and the speed bar? Collapses could be more liable? Any-ways I think it will never keep up with the Reflex wings.

Just my thoughts.

Mikey

[glennP]

The bolero is a good safe wing as far as PG is concerned so I 'm gonna stick with it. Most people I know have regretted selling theirs when upgrading.

As for using it PPG yours is the first bad report i've seen and I'll bear it in mind.

Anyway thanks for the help. Now i've got to decide who to train with.

ta,

Glenn

[shadow750]

HI

well i`m in the same boat ,and would like some advise on a wing ,just now i fly a gin explore dhv 1-2 80-100 kgs "paragliding"......

but looking to take that step up to paramotor, not to keen on changing the risers on the explore but if that were the case is it just a case of swapping the risers, also as i`m 80kg would the explore be ok with the weight odr should i go one weight size up also start fresh with a diff glider.......

thanks guys

but i woudnt what you reading that a paramotor pilot piled in on the wrong wing

stay safe fly easy

jm

[Phil_P]

I think that all you will get will be opinions. It would take a very bold person to say 'of course it is ok to fly 20kg over your wings rated max AUW'.

That said, a great many PPG pilots do exactly that.

[wzh]

I fly paramotor with GIN bolero III(M size,85-105kg, wing weights 6.0kg，produced in 2007 ), total weight while taking off is about 108kg(with 4L gasoline,without reserve).

I weigt 71kg, paramotor weigt 24kg , over that down limitation 3kg. it's a little hard touchdown ground when wind is below 2m/s.

The user guide of GIN bolero III sayes that the pilot of GIN company uses gin bolero III to fly paramotor,and it's ok.

BTW, I buy the paramotor riser from my instructor, I use paramotor riser mode to take off while wind is almost nil, but in general, I take off with paraglider riser mode. I think it's more stable than paramotor riser mode.

During the flying, I would fly more quickly by means of changing to paramotor riser mode.

hope my experience to help you.

[Phil_P]

If wind is almost nil, I would expect you to use 'paraglider mode' i.e. the slowest setting available.

Phil

[glennP]

Hi,

I've been flying with the power risers for a while now and they are definately better than the PG risers for flying the RAD. Torque steer is less requiring less brake pressure which if necessary trimmed out to fly straight hands off. I found the PG risers requires lots of brake brake to keep straight which was tiring.

However the power risers are not a straight fit onto the Mk1 Bolero as the importer had to contact Gin himself to verify they could be used.

Wing is fast in flight and stable in all axes but the power risers have negative effects on PG flying making the canopy less stable than its DHV1 rating.

[ArcusFlyer]

Hi,

......but the power risers have negative effects on PG flying making the canopy less stable than its DHV1 rating.

Hi, This is a topic of interest to me. I recently took delivery of a new Swing Mistral 5, a DHV 1/2 PG wing with DULV certification for powered flight with PPG risers with extended take off weight ranges (up to 155kg in the 5.26 which I now own).

I finally got round to hill flying it tonight (its first flight ever). Lovely 45 minutes at Shining Tor.

I am no expert but I'm surprised you think the PPG risers would degrade free flying performance. My PPG risers have 2 loops, the main hook-ins for the carabiners and also 2 red loops on the end of the trimmer tabs. For free flying you hook both into the carabiners. This effectively locks the risers in PG mode with all risers equal in length which should be absolutely identical to having the original PG risers (ie zero chance of affecting wing characteristics).

In PPG mode you only hook the main riser loop into the carabiners thus allowing the loop on the trimmer tab to be raised as the trimmers are opened.

The new wing flew fantastically on the hill today, all the good characteristics of the arcus but nicer, faster turns and a noticably better glide ratio. Conditions were scratchy but I easily flew across a gap up from the takeoff to the top of the main ridge in one beat. I'm sure I would have bombed out if I'd tried that on the arcus.

Looking forward to trying it on the motor to see wether I can get better airspeed with the trimmers out.

As I said I'm no expert but I'm interested in this subject. Probing the forums seems to have revealed that there are very few people who regularly PG and PPG a hill wing with trimmers.

[glennP]

The Bolero Mk1 was never certified for powered flight and PPG risers were an afterthought introduced on the Bolero Plus which is a different glider from the original.

The GIN power risers were designed for the later series of Gin Boleros , the Bolero Plus and Bolero 3 as far as I am aware. The importer of GIN faxed the owner of the company to check they could be retro fitted to the 1999 designed Mk1 Bolero. He said yes so I fitted them in good faith. However the wing does fly differently now in PG flying.

I hook in the riser trimmer rings as you describe but this does not make them identical to PG risers if the individual riser length or proportions of the risers A-D are different from the actual PG risers supplied with the wing to free flyers.

The wing is more unstable WITH the power risers in my personal experience. I have only ever experienced slight tip deflations with the original risers but have had full frontals which have tucked back and 50% assymetrics since fitting the PPG risers to the Mk1 Bolero whilst thermalling and hill soaring. I am smack bang in the middle of the 90-110kg range for my wing in PG mode and the risers are being used correctly with the karabiner passed through lower mounting holes and trimmer ring.

.

The PPG risers are a different length and design from the originals. The GIN PPG risers are about an inch longer at the A riser and have a full sliding C section line. I only remember making a quick comparison but if the risers lengths are different or in different proportions then clearly the profile or the loading on that section of the glider will be affected and therefore it's response will differ. I Never had a major excursion from normal flight conditions when at trim speed on the original PG risers. Lots on the PPG risers though. Just my experience.

The bonus with the power risers is that the wing under power feels more stable and flies faster. It is also possible to trim out the torque steer and reduce the pilots fatigue. It does not suffer any of the pendular instability in pitch I've been told about but that could be down to the low/high hangpoints flown.

I'm not proclaiming to be an expert either in PG or PPG just relaying my experiences and the advice I've been given.

Other people too have noticed that I am having more problems when hill flying after fitting the PPG risers.

Regardless of all the above if you change anything, line length, risers, sheathing etc the wing is no longer the DHV/DULV rating it was certified to from the factory.

I would expect a new Mistral to fly better than an old Arcus otherwise Swing wouldnt sell a single new glider. Glad you're having fun on it though.

[Phil_P]

My thoughts on the subject, for what they are worth;

If the 'A's are longer on the PPG risers, that would imply a higher angle of attack and a slower setting (supported by your empirical findings when free flying). Would it not be worth considering NOT anchoring the trim tab in PG mode, but rather alter the trim to bring the PPG risers closer to the lengths of the PG version, ie with a lower AOA and slightly faster?

I can only assume that the fully trimmed setting is designed for low speed take off's and landing's, and that this isn't optimum for free flying.

But what do I know,

Phil

[ArcusFlyer]

Hi GlennP,

Thanks for explaining. Apologies - I missed the fact that the ppg risers were designed for a later version of bolero - hence explaining why they had an effect on your earlier bolero model despite being in PG mode.

[wzh]

when apply ppg risers in wing(GIN bolero III), I have following experience,pls reference:

1:wing becomes reflex, turning-round is more easy;

2:you shuld run more quick in order to avoid deflation while handing wing under ground;

3: if wind is almost nil, taking off (ppg mode) is more easy. but changing to pg mode while landing, stall velocity of wing become samll in PG mode.

[glennP]

when apply ppg risers in wing(GIN bolero III), I have following experience,pls reference:

1:wing becomes reflex, turning-round is more easy;

2:you shuld run more quick in order to avoid deflation while handing wing under ground;

3: if wind is almost nil, taking off (ppg mode) is more easy. but changing to pg mode while landing, stall velocity of wing become samll in PG mode.

Hi Wzh,

I did not know this that the "wing becomes a reflex". I'll definately check this out and measure each individual riser with a ruler. If the A riser only were longer ,as has been suggested, then surely this would put the wing at a higher risk of stalling when flying in PG mode and PPG mode. A higher AoA in PG mode is most undesireable as I regularly have to use Big Ears which increases AoA further. With the increased wing loading and hence higher stall speed any extension of the As would degrade the stall performance.

I haven't noticed that it turns faster. It's still a boat. It does take off and land OK even in nil wind.

Flying with tyhe trimmers out is a big No-No for PG. This is listed on the risers.

PG take offs are cliff edges and high hills/mountains often with large drops below launch. There is no 2nd chance should you have the trimmers set incorrectly and enter a turn when launching. I won't be trying that hint out for my PG flying.

If the profile becomes more reflex as is suggested then I need to think about flying Pg with the PPG risers on. They are great when flying the RAD in PPG mode. No complaints at all. It's quick enough and landing/take off is at reasonable speed. I'm happy with that and the lack of torque steer when trimmed out.

Bugger! I might have to buy another wing. The mrs will not be happy!

[glennP]

By the way Arcus Flyer how is your new wing ?

Comparsions in flight PG/PPG to your old wing?

Just interested as I will change wings in another 15 hours of flying to a better DHV1-2.

Been looking at a number of wings so interested in one that is certified for both Pg and PPG and what they are like in both modes. I'm not rich enough to be able to afford 2 wings so a compromise has to be struck.

All the best , Glenn

[ArcusFlyer]

Haven't flown the new wing as much as I'd liked but have put 3 hours on in PG only. I really like it. I think it really manages to keep all the good characteristics of the arcus despite having noticably better performance / glide. Basically it just a sporty arcus.

Motor issues mean I havent tried it on the motor with the trimmers out but will do asap and let you know.

Theres a very positive 2 page review on the mistral in the latest skywings. I liked the arcus so much it was a fairly easy choice to stick with swing especially as i have friends who fly and like the mistral and it was dulv certified.