Guest Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 couple of questions really? if you flew and the wind had picked up to 15 20 mph would you land in a wind shaddow, or would you come in on fast trim with motor running? i would pick the first option, the second option seems too dangerous if you get dragged or somethin goes wrong, so any thoughts on it? the second one is some chap said never have your trims off set to fly straight, can someone be good enough to explain why this is please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 if you flew and the wind had picked up to 15 20 mph would you land in a wind shadow NO, why, ROTOR. you are better off being dragged than dumped from 20 or 30 feet , or would you come in on fast trim with motor running? YES, with or without motor running. i would pick the first option, the second option seems too dangerous if you get dragged or something goes wrong, so any thoughts on it? the second one is some chap said never have your trims off set to fly straight, can someone be good enough to explain why this is please It deforms the wing and the side with the trim pulled in more will be more liable to stall than the side with the trim out If I am wrong please correct me. Pete b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t_andrews Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I Agree with Pete, a horizontal drag almost always is preferred over a vertical drop simply because the energies are spread out. (dragged into Sharks, Gators, Piranhas Sewage treatment stations maybe not) Even: the second one is some chap said never have your trims off set to fly straight, can someone be good enough to explain why this is pleaseIt deforms the wing and the side with the trim pulled in more will be more liable to stall than the side with the trim out Makes perfect sense, but is less important until the instant the pilot unloads the wing on touchdown - then they have a uneven wing load/lift they may or may not be ready to deal with. Effectively the same as landing while crabbing or side hill, just that the trims are less obvious then a brake handle differential and much less easy to change when touching down. Wind shadow does not necessarily mean rotor, but the edges between them are invisible to all but the experienced. For most of us, landing into wind as fast as your wing can fly, even if ground speed is negative (backwards) is the safer of inexperienced options. A swooped landing (to increase loading) can add quite a few kph on your top speed, but all of it requires some experience/practice. Heck, some folks go looking for mountainous leeside rotor (waves) to get where they're going. I've landed in wind shadow to escape thermic activity that was pretty violent, but the tradeoff was a wind shift of 90 degrees about wing height off the deck. Landing wasn't pretty, but certainly better then I expected out where the popcorn lift was rocking me unpredictably and faster. One of those "learned myself good" days. Pilot in control best take all the info they can remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 thankyou i dont know if right or wrong but goin back to wind shadow and rotar, well if you was far enough away from the cause of rotar would you not be ok assumin rotor only travels a certain distance? were i live is aprox 100 feet above sea level so when there is wind we get it. but there is large valleys towns lower down were the wind isnt half the speed and it is trhere were i was thinkin of options to land i dont mean head for the trees and land 6 feet befre them type thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon_dunn Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Leoib- why don't you book into a PPG school- you'll cover all this stuff.... and more You shouldn't need to ask fundamental questions like this on a forum..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 Now for the techy answer as supplied to me from the one who knows As you let the trims out the "centre of pressure" moves forward and the reflex section self stabilises the wing (as you know). With assymetric trim settings the centre of pressure is not a line across the wing but an S shape so the self stabilisation acts differently in both sides of the wing (more on the fast side, less on the slow), and at a different point in the chord. A bit like a "mexican wave" in a football stand. It can be in phase and out of phase across the wing and cancel out self stabilisation and also generate ueven presure across the wing. This may permit or induce an assymetric collapse when you think you should not get one on your self stabilising reflex; more so than if you had the trimmers set slow but equal. Also, upon recovery, the wing is returning to an assymetric state and may induce a reciprocal collapse on the other side. The wing is designed to self stabilise through reflex and also through pendulum and also through equal wash-in at the tips assuming a symetric wing configuration. I undrstand (although yet to be confirmed) that reflex wings wash-in is reduced thus not limiting the size of a collapse as it rolls across from one side to the centre. I an assymetric state it may permit even further progress of a reciprocal collapse. (this last point is my own theorising and speculation). For all these reasons assymetric trim setting may not be a good idea. If it is considered one needs to ask why? and usually it is due to some other cause but you are treating a sympton. (e.g. assymetric blade thrust (blade disc tilt), torque effect (motor mounting/angle/alignment), unevenly shrunk lines, brake line length difference, ueven pilot loading, riser/shackle/strap shorter one side etc etc etc. Pete b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 well my friend i assumed a forum was for any questions relating to the sport , and it is covered in various books and schools but to be fair there is a lot that contradict what others hae said, so comin and asking these questions on a forum you get a lot of different opinions and ideas as to best in any situation, and the opinions of a lot of people is far stronger than that of one person, so that is why i dont need to get an instructor to tell me, i already know what should be done, bus as i say i ask cos i like the opinions and ideas of others, it also confirms things you happy with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 thanks pete good explanation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 thanks pete good explanation Dont thank me thank The one who knows This message will self destruct in 3 Seconds Pete b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 This message will self destruct in 2 Seconds Pete b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 This message will self destruct in 1 Seconds Pete b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_b Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 ************************************************************ ************************************************************ ************************************************************ ************************************************************ ************************************************************ *******************... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t_andrews Posted February 21, 2009 Share Posted February 21, 2009 I was typing there and almost lost a finger! Easy with the self destructing posts Pete! I spose I should have done the mph/kmh conversion there as it would have noted that whatever wing you fly, it's still under trim speed. In that case my point stands, but is less applicable as you'd be using some brake range and so could compensate at touchdown. It leans more toward being able to handle your wing @ trim speed (for reflexers, takeoff trim) on the ground then how you landed it in the end, but this landing would a nice elevator ride anyway with some throttle descent maintenance thrown in. I didn't assume this was a reflex trim, although the S shaped center of pressure bit is intriguing (I would have thought of it as an ellipse with varied trims). Just like that center of pressure, there is a center of rotor (whose shape is defined by wind speeds and obstacle dimensions). The center is best avoided, but as you note leoibb the edges of it are not so chaotic as they begin to assume regular flow again. This is the shadow I was speaking of, where the rotor's natural mixing diffuses the thermal variance in my scenario. If thermals are not a contributor, then it's just knowing where the airflow smooths out again, what you're capable of landing in, or the combination thereof. Knowledge is progress, or we'd all still be throwing feces at each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I tend to agree with Gordon on this one. (look back to Gordons post in this thread) It's nice to help mates out, and I've fallen foul of this temptation too, but there's a liability issue here. If something were to happen to Leoib after advice from this group there could be problems for anyone concerned. AND it's all in black and white. I would be shy of making recommendations from now on. It's common knowledge that leoib regards training as "unneccessary" and/or not required, so pressumeably he thinks it's ok to self teach. If that IS the case, then let him get on with it. If he feels he needs help with it, then let him seek tuition, like we all did, pressumeably. I assure you there is no malice intended Lee, but, please decide which flag you're gonna fly. Good luck, whatever you decide on Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon_dunn Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I tend to agree with Gordon on this one. (look back to Gordons post in this thread) It's nice to help mates out, and I've fallen foul of this temptation too, but there's a liability issue here. If something were to happen to Leoib after advice from this group there could be problems for anyone concerned. AND it's all in black and white. I would be shy of making recommendations from now on. It's common knowledge that leoib regards training as "unneccessary" and/or not required, so pressumeably he thinks it's ok to self teach. If that IS the case, then let him get on with it. If he feels he needs help with it, then let him seek tuition, like we all did, pressumeably.I assure you there is no malice intended Lee, but, please decide which flag you're gonna fly. Good luck, whatever you decide on Dave Dave you are infact right here- Liability is an issue. Unless you are a qualified instructor you shouldn't be giving advice. If you are a BHPA Club Coach, you can 'coach' a BHPA club member, providing they have a BHPA rating already. I've noticed a lot of people on this forum giving advice- desipite some very low hours, no rating or formal qualifications, and very little experience- you do need to be careful. The situation in the Repulic of Ireland, forces potential pilots to go to a recognised school to get a rating, before applying for their exemption certificate- this is by far a better system than the UK. More awkard, and certainly more work, but we don't get people asking if it's safe to land in 'wind shadow'......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 hello lol i have has training and i know what i would do i was asking because there are varied opinions and it is nice to open somethin up and see what comes out, the main interest was the off setting the trim which has been answered well. i dont fly in anything more than 5 mph wind so if i read the weather right i wont get caught up in bad winds, so please stop worrying, and i am sensible enough to know this is a forum were all sorts of answers come thick and fast and only a fool would take advise without verification so dont worry bout me. i agree with who said that you judge were the wind stops swirling to land if you are lower down , i live in a place were there are big valleys and fields so i have a lot of options, if it is 10 mph here then lower down it may only be 4mph in a large field, and i was just curious if i did get in that situation were the wing was higher than i wanted i would make a choice to land lower were the wind isnt as strong. i know all about power on ajust trim to land but that is a skill that doing the first time one may not get right and bye bye prop. if i was on flat land for miles then that would be my only option, but as i say i dont live in a desert lol and i dont go out if the wind is more than 5mph constant so thanks for the answers and stop worrying, i am sure there is more accidents from experienced people than new people, complaicency, carlesness, rushin and on and on, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnorton Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Dave / Gordon, I see where you are both coming from, but wouldn't this forum be a lot quieter if people felt there was no point replying to a question because of the potential consequences. I would say that unless you are an Instructor, you shouldn't instruct, but is advice the same? I for one would not take the advise of one person alone, unless I knew something of that persons experience. To advise or recommend is not to instruct, is it? I believe there are other forums where posts are monitored and anything that is incorrect would be removed. I think the way things work here is self monitoring; if someone says or states something that is considered incorrect, another person will usually make a comment about it. I think it is good that a question can turn into a discussion, I do however think that all people should recieve training. Jon I tend to agree with Gordon on this one. (look back to Gordons post in this thread) It's nice to help mates out, and I've fallen foul of this temptation too, but there's a liability issue here. If something were to happen to Leoib after advice from this group there could be problems for anyone concerned. AND it's all in black and white. I would be shy of making recommendations from now on. It's common knowledge that leoib regards training as "unneccessary" and/or not required, so pressumeably he thinks it's ok to self teach. If that IS the case, then let him get on with it. If he feels he needs help with it, then let him seek tuition, like we all did, pressumeably.I assure you there is no malice intended Lee, but, please decide which flag you're gonna fly. Good luck, whatever you decide on Dave Dave you are infact right here- Liability is an issue. Unless you are a qualified instructor you shouldn't be giving advice. If you are a BHPA Club Coach, you can 'coach' a BHPA club member, providing they have a BHPA rating already. I've noticed a lot of people on this forum giving advice- desipite some very low hours, no rating or formal qualifications, and very little experience- you do need to be careful. The situation in the Repulic of Ireland, forces potential pilots to go to a recognised school to get a rating, before applying for their exemption certificate- this is by far a better system than the UK. More awkard, and certainly more work, but we don't get people asking if it's safe to land in 'wind shadow'......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Nothing beats good healthy debate, I duuno' about you but I learn a lot from it. Gordon and others do have a point though where it comes to training matters and therefore safety related issues. As a newcomers it can be quite a task to sort out what is good and sound advice from what amounts to ill informed drivel. One dangerous misconception can maim or even kill in the flying game - how do you differentiate without learned opinion and advice? Perhaps the way forward is to promote reasoned debate and quote references and sources? To take nothing that you read on a forum as gospel, treat it perhaps as a scholar might treat Wikipedia - read by all means, but verify as the sources are not necessarily subject to informed scrutiny. That said it is true to say that we get well informed opinion visiting this place. Francis had his moments but is a mine of really interesting information and knowledge. Similarly Gordon always makes a lot of sense to me. Great care is required as well as a healthy dollop of mutual respect for each others views. Then I think it works... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer_Dave Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 See your point Jon. Sorry if I seemed a bit too methodical in my previous post but I still think there are implications to consider. As an employer I have become very aware of liability and health and safety. It can all seem a bit tedious with apparently unneccessary paper work and filing. eg Tell the employee what to do, and what not to and for how long etc etc etc write it down and get the employee to sign it so it can be verified later , until things go wrong then the admin all comes into play. My insurance company just got stung by a scammer. I did all the paperwork to protect the employee but was a bit slack (trusting) to do the bit which protected me! Wont get caught again! See what I'm getting at. We've done the tedious admin here. Given the instructions, good or bad, wise or unwise, signed it and filed it forever, with wordsearch to dig it up again for anyones convenience, automatically. (Unless Simon gets his rubber out) I'd just add that I dont think Lee's a scammer and dont think he'd chase his mates for compensation if he turned his ankle and needed 6 weeks off work. But I do know that anything written can be used, for the simple reason that that's all they have to go on. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 i see what ya sayin its a shame the world is like this. il try give an instance to give an idea were opinions are important. i know of a chap who was flying and hit some turbuence, he had not got hold of the brakes and one brake went through the mesh and chopped off by the prop. i then asked an instructor and explained i always seat my breaks before taking my hands off them, so they aint danglin, he asked why i did it i said because the breakes could go through the prop, his answer was it never happens, well i know it does happen, so even instructors use opinions, in other words cos it aint happened to them it wont happen to you type sineario, and comin to a forum to ask the question you get opinions of a lot and they are varied so i think it is important to let people ask questions, we cant tell there motives no and it aint for us to judge them either. the fact that i came and asked a question some assumed i need training well that is not the case i am very capable and i know what is the best thing to do in a situation, now that aint from training altho i do spend time with experienced people, it is from instructors opinions books the net and forums then i make a decision as to what is right or wrong based on the information given i am like this with everything check and double check and go further, in fact i get on peoples nerves cos i am the one who asks the most and then digs in to there answers and i guess it can be frustratin for them i will also say that anyone who takes the advise of one person would be a fool and didnt ought to be flying really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnorton Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Dave, I work on the railway so understand completely your point about paperwork coming into play if an incident occurs. They are very particular about training requirements, briefings, etc. You find yourself signing docs all the time that state - I confirm that I have received, read & understood. Just signing to say you have read is no longer acceptable. Could this forum have a simple disclaimer which all members must accept (tick box to accept), it could say that 'posts/comments on this forum must be taken as individuals opinions only and should not be taken as correct', or something along those lines. Even people who are qualified PPG instructors could still be placing themselves at risk by giving advise out of their 'official' training environment. Two ways of looking at it though, firstly the arse covering exercise which may not count anyway from a legal point of view, and secondly, that it wouldn't prevent bad advise potentially causing an injury / incident. Anyway, just thinking out loud really Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_P Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I tend to agree with Gordon on this one. (look back to Gordons post in this thread) It's nice to help mates out, and I've fallen foul of this temptation too, but there's a liability issue here. If something were to happen to Leoib after advice from this group there could be problems for anyone concerned. AND it's all in black and white. I would be shy of making recommendations from now on. It's common knowledge that leoib regards training as "unneccessary" and/or not required, so pressumeably he thinks it's ok to self teach. If that IS the case, then let him get on with it. If he feels he needs help with it, then let him seek tuition, like we all did, pressumeably.I assure you there is no malice intended Lee, but, please decide which flag you're gonna fly. Good luck, whatever you decide on Dave Personally, I don't think this holds water. Advice obtained on the internet is worth exactly what you pay for it, and good luck to anyone who thinks they are going to successfully sue for following bad advice obtained on a forum. There are a million and one fora, covering just about every aspect of human existence, and on just about every one of them, you can find advice. It is up to an individual to filter and to decide what information might be applicable to them. As far as I can see, the main reason for the existence of a forum is to gain information. To withhold information for fear of litigation, is I fear, rendering PMC and many others as just an internet vent for so much hot air. Dave, whilst to an extent, I understand your position regarding Leo's choice to not undergo formal training. You have to accept, that there are plenty of trainers out there, who quite frankly don't deserve to fly themselves, let alone teach others. Would you feel the same way if Leo had been on a course run by such a person, and then come here asking for advice afterwards? Let's face it, it's not that long ago when the only option WAS self instruction, or if you were lucky, a bit of coaching from a mate who had managed to survive his first take off and landing. I make no secret of the fact that I am a low hours paramotorist, but on the other hand, I have a good few hours as a PPL holder under my belt. I also have a reasonable grounding in physics and maths so can grasp the fundamentals of aerodynamics. I'm happy to pass on any information that I believe I understand correctly, but there is always the caveat that I might be completely wrong. I tend to use the internet as a sort of polling system. If I find a large groundswell of opinion leaning in a particular direction, then I tend to have a good listen, and then apply logic to see whether the arguments hold out. Whether others take this approach is up to them, but I still think we should not live in fear of giving advice. Oh, and just for the record, I fly a non reflex wing, and use my trimmers to offset torque effect. Otherwise I could never fly hands off the brakes, as I'd be going in circles all the time. As it happens, my trims have no calibration markings on them to enable accurately setting both at the same amount anyway, so I don't think it is too critical. From an aerodynamic point of view, I don't see a substantial difference between flying with offset trim, and flying with brake on one side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 fair to say is that , and paramotor instructor have no formal qualification in the sport so who can say they will get it right for you, i have heard stories of instructors who have cocked up with students. its a fairly easy sport to be fair so long as you use your head and aint stupid , i have spent my life in health and safety scaffoldin for years without harnesses swingin about on poles up 200 foot, roofin too so i know the health and safety and i know what is safe for me and dangerous, accidents happen more to experienced pilots so i dont think the key to stayin safe is go see an instructor, it is a mind set that makes you aware of dangers, its called common sence i think lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon_dunn Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 fair to say is that , and paramotor instructor have no formal qualification in the sport so who can say they will get it right for you, Leoibb- Have to correct you here- In order to become a BHPA instructor you must first of all have a rating, secondly- do a coaching course, and pass the test, then thirdly do the instructors course and pass the exam. There are instructors out there calling themselves 'instructors'- but i will only recommend certified BHPA instructors to anyone. In the Republic of Ireland, to get the exemption you must attend a BHPA or IHPPA certified instructor's school. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norman Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Free climbing buildings (no ropes) could not be described as a safe pastime yet every free climber you talk to hasn't died doing it (by definition). That certainly doesn't mean that they won't though. A pilot had an accident recently at Las Candelas using a practice that had served him 'well' for several years, he got it wrong once - he lost two fingers. There is a safe and an unsafe way of doing many things, survive for years doesn't prove that you won't depart the earth next time you climb a building or up your scaffolding. I hasten to add here leobib that I am not trying to tell you your job, it is for you to decide how you do it of course. Me? I would have two harnesses and three ropes - I don't do heights. Sadly the Elf & safety Nazi's have run all the way with the power and perfect justification they have been given. They now make our working lives..... almost unworkable in places. leobib, There is an element of truth in what you say in the latter part of your last post but I think you are a little off track. Anyone can teach themselves to do almost anything. The trouble is they have a fool for a teacher and may well not survive the lessons. An instructors job is to create an environment where learning can safely take place. They take you further and faster (with less equipment damage) than you can possibly go alone. Quality training for instructors is absolutely vital, without it they teach from their imagination, not from a syllabus that has been pored over by experts, and developed by those who examine the art very carefully before deciding what needs to be taught to produce a safe, skilled operative. One of the most important elements of an instructors training course is the Training Skills aspect. Within this he discovers how people learn, how they perceive the world and interpret it. Then he finds out how to develop and use his own skills to effectively pass across information to another human being. As Gordon says, an instructor doesn't get that from within, the knowledge comes from without. Experienced teachers then pass on their knowledge then coach and develop your skills so that you can 'give out.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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